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Author Topic: Leaving the project  (Read 775 times)
Offline (Unknown gender) EHeroEdgeman
Reply #15 Posted on: May 01, 2019, 09:04:10 PM
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Free fundies Enigma without Fundies is like a child without it's mother A child but a child without its mother
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #16 Posted on: May 01, 2019, 09:09:00 PM
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Josh and Robert have now decided being nice takes priority over progressing the project. Despite the fact noone does more to help new users set up enigma than me, they've taken it upon themselves to ban me from the main discords channel. Robert's now approaching 1 year on finishing something that should've taken a few days. Josh has pushed an update to JDI just in time for the 10 year anniversary. And TKG has rewritten the same dialog system for 20th time. Meanwhile, I've made huge efforts to bootstrap the IDE, write a new file format, implement MSVC, Android and HTML5 support as well as starting the CI to ensure less breaks. However. none of that is appreciated. I can't get even a little help. Even when I practically beg for it. Instead I'm banned for being an "annoying asshole."

I've removed my account from discord and removed myself from the organization on Github. TKG, and all the other people incapable of taking a joke can now rejoice in your "safe space."

I'm sorry I ever cared.

I can relate and I know the feeling of dealing with people who misinterpret everything and anything and cannot take a joke or comments that are classified as tongue in cheek - it's unfortunate that companies do not look at your overall worth - I've been terminated from a technology company after 5 years in service, despite having been extremely competent in my area and appreciated by the company, it only takes 1 misinterpreted comment to destroy your entire successful career no questions asked.  It's a shame to see this project ruined and destroyed over the "not getting along" between developers, this has always been a problem as far as I can remember and is probably one of the main reasons why the project has progressed slowly.   What's the use of dedicating years of effort to something to in the end get destroyed right ? I can relate,  I don't know what drama happened on Discord or what I missed or what pushed them to ban you but whether it is a open project or a company, people should work hard at keeping their talent, whilst containing any annoyance or disagreement (warning, discussion.....) some people / companies rather take the lazy, easy approach and get rid of people even though they were active - I thought this community was tolerant, you must have done something really bad ? what happened ?   Some people take shit seriously, it depends from WHO it comes from, you've said some shit to me too, I didn't make a fuss about it, because I knew the context - some people are mean by nature and mean most of what they say, I guess ENIGMA developers have never quite gotten along along those years, the sexual tension amongst you lot is the highest I have seen in any given projects - I guess it took its toll on the project - it's hard enough to find skilled coders to help with the project - some want to help but do not have the skills to do so, so is it wise to just get rid of the few people left, I dunno about that.

So lesson well learned right ?  Kiss as much arse as you can - never give you true point of view - and never do more than is asked of you, because in the end someone / some people will find any little thing ot destroy all your work over a few words.

Maybe I am saying all of the above because I am a big supporter of free speech and I strongly object to censorship - unless you did something unlawful, illegal, or that can get people in trouble, I don't see any benefit of censorship on a project that is basically having on a very thin rope, I will never support censorship.  There is a difference between being a troll and annoying and doing nothing and being annoying in the eyes of some people and contributing to the project.

Unless I missed some major development, I do not see why they banned you unless you hurt someone's feeling and made their butt hurt.

//edit: It appears after doing some reading that they banned you for conduct overseeing everything else (contributions, etc) - I guess in the end it all comes down to people's threshold of tolerance, while the "regulars" will be more lenient and tolerate all the jokes and trolling, some people (less regulars) might be turned away or such conduct might be frowned upon, it's unfortunate I guess but no matter how good you are or how much you contributed to something, in the end any individual or company will overlook that and take action if they deem things have gotten past a threshold.

Take my advice, it will be the best advice I can give someone - in many cases it is better to be a silent contributor.  My biggest fucking mistake in the company I worked for was being highly involved in discussion, sometimes hot topics related to tech,I've never been insulting or personal it was all a matter of ego and incompetence in trying to cover up  some shit, it was not about bad conduct but opinion, so yeah a different case - I guess they determined that your conduct pushed people away, from what I read they did not ban you from the project or even discord, just from the main channel.

 whilst a lot of my colleagues who were much less skilled than me, kept silent, they still have their fucking job, whilst on the other hand whilst I had the expertise and domain knowledge, despite 5 years of intensive involvement and good work, have lost my job.  Sometimes silence is gold - Discord is optional and is not necessary to contribute, and it's best to keep trolling or jokes or whatever outside of the general areas for those more sensitive to that - It is clear regardless of whether you were banned or not, many devs do not see eye to eye, and not only on ENIGMA, but everywhere, in the place I worked for, you had a group of devs who wanted change whilst another group wanted status quo or adhered to bureaucracy and shit - tough luck if a given project had all devs that were 100% on the sa me bloody fucking wave length life would be so much better indeed.

On the flip side of the coin people who really care about a project should overlook anything they find annoying and learn to ignore it and focus on what matters - those who are overly sensitive to criticism, trolls, or what not should stay away from the heat or just learn to channel out what they do not like, some people can't be bothered to channel out and will leave I guess.


« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 10:05:04 PM by Darkstar2 » Logged
Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #17 Posted on: May 02, 2019, 04:03:25 AM

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Darkstar, this is what everybody keeps missing. I actually mostly agree with you (disagree with a few things I'll point out below), but this is not about who's right or who's wrong. It's about fundies driving people effing crazy. If people want to read the kind of disparaging, racy, vulgar garbage he writes, they should go somewhere else and not be on a game engine project.

I also hate this entire topic because none of it is genuine. It's just an attempt for him to make everybody feel sorry for him and stir dissent. That doesn't happen after you've gone and insulted or pissed off literally everybody who tried to help you.

Quote from: Darkstar2
What's the use of dedicating years of effort to something to in the end get destroyed right ?
This is by no means a break from the norm, most time is spent on software maintenance not design or development. According to a publication from Cambridge University's Business School, programmers spend 50.1% of their time debugging software (page 5 of the pdf).
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.370.9611&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Also, in spite of fundies, nothing has actually been destroyed, the repo is in perfect tact better than it ever was.

Quote from: Darkstar2
people should work hard at keeping their talent
I'm convinced Josh did this. We've all told fundies many times what he's doing bothers us, and he seems to be the obstinate type that you just can't give any constructive criticism to. We haven't even banned him, he can still join and post to that channel. Rather than take people's feedback and change his behavior, he'd rather scream about it and stomp his feet!

Quote from: Darkstar2
some people will find any little thing ot destroy all your work over a few words.
It's simply not a few words. I could compile about 100 volumes of fundies annoying pings, long rants, and general garbage flung at random people over the last month alone. Nobody is censoring fundies at all, he's not banned. There's a right way to lead people, e.g constructive criticism, and a wrong way, e.g annoying the fuck out of people.

Quote from: Darkstar2
it's hard enough to find skilled coders to help with the project - some want to help but do not have the skills to do so, so is it wise to just get rid of the few people left, I dunno about that.
This is actually about a skilled and talented coder, who's also respected among GameMaker users, sending pull requests to ENIGMA only for fundies to annoy that person off. Josh made it VERY CLEAR in his post that fundies is costing more than he's worth because he's scaring off more people than he has talent to make up for.


« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 04:06:55 AM by Goombert » Logged
I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #18 Posted on: May 02, 2019, 08:26:11 AM

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I'm going to step back in here long enough to say that the one time I'm being nice to the one person everyone else is treating rather poorly of course I'm being ignored by him. I'm practically taking his side in that i think he should still be on the main discord. Clearly there's a better way to resolve this than booting our only good programmer out. Yeah Robert and Josh are good too but fundies is making a lot of good points everyone is ignoring just because they way he is saying it isn't so kind.

Edit: skimming over darkstar2's post it makes me happy to know I'm not the only one being civil here. I didn't see the second page when writing this. Not to mention i almost forgot about hpg.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 08:36:16 AM by time-killer-games » Logged
Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #19 Posted on: May 02, 2019, 08:33:31 AM

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Free fundies Enigma without Fundies is like a child without it's mother A child but a child without its mother

Either fundies made a second account just to post this or we have a GMC'er spying on us. No thanks to this being on the home page.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #20 Posted on: May 02, 2019, 11:32:51 AM
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Free fundies Enigma without Fundies is like a child without it's mother A child but a child without its mother

Either fundies made a second account just to post this or we have a GMC'er spying on us. No thanks to this being on the home page.

Old news - or did you just realise this now ? :P  At least the spies should make good use of this site, and report back so they can UNDO their fucking mistakes, so it could just be one or more spies to monitor if anything illegal is being said or done, so they can collect the $$$....This is how things work.  :) I seem to recall years ago some officials there mocking and bashing the project here, it's vague, but I recall them stating that they do things right and that people here don't know what they are talking about or doing anyways - They should look in the fucking mirror.


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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #21 Posted on: May 02, 2019, 12:42:12 PM
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Darkstar, this is what everybody keeps missing. I actually mostly agree with you (disagree with a few things I'll point out below), but this is not about who's right or who's wrong. It's about fundies driving people effing crazy.

Right so I guess in this world, you cannot be both competent and driving people crazy at the same time, unless you are a president :P  :D or other politician(s) :P

I understand the point which is what makes things difficult because sometimes a person can be extremely talented and skills but somehow they sink themselves into a hole - People tend to forget easily and will look mostly at the negative traits of a person no matter how much you contributed, I know first hand :D  It does not matter if you work 5 years, 20 years 40 years for a company, the moment there is lack of chemistry and your views do not agree with someone important enough you are done - some companies care more of their image than their profits, I'm not saying this is the case here, this is just some fucked up random example :D  Point being, a flamer, troll etc who has no use would get kicked out, what about one that is a good asset (and not just an ASS :P ) is BANNING the only solution ? Or would exploring other methods first be better then banning for last if all else fails .........

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If people want to read the kind of disparaging, racy, vulgar garbage he writes, they should go somewhere else and not be on a game engine project.

Nope people do not want to read ONLY that, people who know him can tolerate it to some extent, newer people or some with lower threshold might not, again, is removing your big asset the ONLY solution that is the question, and not whether it is ok to subject people to such conduct.  Some people know that shit is said online, and most of the time it is not meant, and that some people only do that to draw attention and most importantly REACTION, this is not to say that there are no genuinely mean and disgusting people who mean everything they write, but that's another story.  Sexual tension is quite high around these parts, and on Discord too, perhaps more wanking - nothing like a good wank before a long coding session right ?  :D  Good points are made on either side, question is not who is right or wrong, question is were there any other solutions ?

As far as I remember there was some racy, vulgar and disparaging shit written in ENIGMA's own code, which gets distributed to everyone, which is worse, in your opinion, ok when I joined the project I channeled it out, but some people would normally just be offended and say fuck off, yet nobody seemed to mine back in the days that there were some vulgar comments and references inside the C++ code.

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I also hate this entire topic because none of it is genuine. It's just an attempt for him to make everybody feel sorry for him and stir dissent. That doesn't happen after you've gone and insulted or pissed off literally everybody who tried to help you.

Well I guess that's how some people show their gratitude and appreciation, maybe they do not mean to "insult" - I see people around talking shit to one another whilst at work, then after work next thing you know they are at the same orgy session.


Quote from: Darkstar2
What's the use of dedicating years of effort to something to in the end get destroyed right ?
[quoite=Goombert]
This is by no means a break from the norm, most time is spent on software maintenance not design or development. According to a publication from Cambridge University's Business School, programmers spend 50.1% of their time debugging software (page 5 of the pdf).
[/quote]

I agree, my point was not about enigma it was about in general, LIFE, what's the fucking use anyways, some people work their tits off to succeed and make something of their life, only to get strings of bad luck and destruction of everything they worked for, I meant that, not code, yes you are right, a lot of time is spent on maintenance, most developers don't get shit right the first time, especially not when you are dealing with hundreds of thousands of line of code, even the expert coder, you can have the best attention to detail, there WILL be fuck-ups you discover as bugs, you fix those motherfuckers of bugs, only to create new regressions, you fix those it works for a while, you then add shit because you are on continuous development, and yet you will break something, that's where good QA comes in handy and having regression tests, as far as sloppy coding and being really bad, that also exists - but one of the bad aspects of an open sourced project is just that, being open, a develop has no contractual obligation or incentive to stay, so basically a developer can start shit, then just fuck off and leave something they did not finish, which is broken and left broken, and when you have a lot of that in your code from different devs and at the time there was not proper QA and regression testing, who picks up the shite in the end and all the pieces ? Existing devs, including you who is doing maintenance work and clean-up work, so it's no surprising that most of the time is spent on maintenance - a lot of companies have absolutely horrible QA.

I had a strong base in coding, logic, etc, just not much in C++, yet ENIGMA has caused me to want to learn more and get interested in that aspect.  I was not too fond of the new system of installing ENIGMA, but now I think it is the best method, which I even prefer to pre-made scripts and old method, yes it takes a lot of space, but storage is cheap (outside SSD :D) and I think people should take the time to learn this process and get their hands a little dirty, there are many advantages to the current system of installing ENIGMA- just a git pull away from updating instead of having to re-install the whole shit, there is big value to that.


Quote
I'm convinced Josh did this. We've all told fundies many times what he's doing bothers us, and he seems to be the obstinate type that you just can't give any constructive criticism to. We haven't even banned him, he can still join and post to that channel. Rather than take people's feedback and change his behavior, he'd rather scream about it and stomp his feet!

You haven't banned him ? I thought he was banned from the specific discord channel no ? and was given his own channel?
I guess in a way if this is true the doors were still open, he still had/has the option to contribute silently, it's hard to stay silent when there is so much sexual tension though :P

Quote
This is actually about a skilled and talented coder, who's also respected among GameMaker users, sending pull requests to ENIGMA only for fundies to annoy that person off. Josh made it VERY CLEAR in his post that fundies is costing more than he's worth because he's scaring off more people than he has talent to make up for.

So I guess everything solution was exhausted right ?  By any chance, are the people he is allegedly turning away talent to be contributors or just users ?  When I joined ENIGMA as a new user, it was CHAOS on the forum, flaming, insulting, vulgar, derogative, it was an all out flame war on the forum, I and others stuck around I guess, sometimes it's best to stay away from specific topics and not join the conversation, learned the hard lesson - sometimes when you join specific topics the flames get higher and higiher.

Silence is gold in some cases, though not always, but some :D

I guess decisions like these can be a community decision, if he was found to annoy a majority and a majority want him gone, then there is nothing much else to be done and it is unfortunate.   Long life and continuation to ENIGMA hopefully.

But I guess from reading it seems it was determined by some that majority made the decision


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Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #22 Posted on: May 02, 2019, 12:56:59 PM

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I’m sorry for not emailing you for so long. I might have told you that I was doing exams in January and probably would be busy while preparing for them. I just can’t remember when I last emailed you. I guess it was a long time ago. I’m too lazy to work it out myself… As I can see from your letter, you are enjoying your holidays or you *were* enjoying your holidays.. ;) Are you going to school yet or are you still in Russia?

Have you visited Moscow? If you’ve been to Moscow, tell me what you were doing here! That would really be interesting! I have a lot to tell you about. But first of all, I’d like to comment on your letter.

There’s probably no point in suggesting anything interesting to do in Moscow now because you’ve already been here. There are plenty of interesting things to see in the capital of Russia. It depends what you’d like to see. Even though I know most of your hobbies it’s hard for me to make any suggestions about what you should see in Moscow. If you haven’t visited Moscow yet, just tell me, and I’ll try to think of as many great places to see as I can.

Glad to hear you’re keen on taking photos as well. I guess you have an expensive photo camera, yeah? I actually have two digital cameras. One costs about $400 and is very good. Since I’m no professional photographer I like this camera very much. I recently read a review of this camera on PC Magazine’s website and was surprised by the comments it received. They say that there’s quite a bit of noise in the photos taken by my camera. That’s odd ‘coz I can hardly see any noise at all. Maybe, compared to other cameras, my camera has pretty much noise but I’m quite satisfied with the quality of most of my photos. The other camera costs just about $150 but the big advantage of this camera is its size. It’s twice as small as the other one. You can quite easily put it in your pocket and be sure that you’ll be able to take a photo of anything you want.
Now, actually, I’ve got only one camera (for $150), ‘coz my Daddy dropped the expensive one while he was in Europe. Since I was used to taking photos with that camera it was hard for me to work with the other camera. My Daddy says that we’ll buy a new good (I mean fairly expensive) digital camera if this one can’t be mended. We’ll see.

I always take plenty of photos when traveling. I think it’s ok that some pics are rubbish because it’s impossible to take only great ones. Both my laptop and PC are cramped with photos as well. I’m planning on transferring them onto DVDs sometime. I’ve already burned about 6 CDs with photos but that was about a year ago and I’ve taken plenty more photos since then. I’ve worked out recently that I need to buy 2 (maybe 3) DVDs (4.7Gb each) to burn all my photos. I want to transfer them all onto discs because I’m afraid of losing them. If anything goes wrong with my HDD, I won’t be able to restore them.

I also get shitty when I’m distracted by someone who knows that I’m working. I couldn’t care less about your language because I too use swear words pretty often when hanging out with my friends. . I’ve been getting less and less privacy in my room lately. I’m very annoyed when someone enters my room when I’m listening to music with my headphones. I sometimes don’t even notice them enter the room and get frightened when they suddenly start speaking to me. On the other hand, I understand that I can’t do anything about it. I don’t really feel like forbidding coming into room when I’m in. My parents wouldn’t understand that! And they would be right!

As for contemporary art, I don’t think much of it. Don’t think badly of me. I’m not a fan of art, frankly. I like some pictures but they hardly ever make much impression on me

It’s time I said a few words about my exams. We did four exams. They’re Philosophy, Economics, Math, and Russian History. I got excellent grades for the first two, bad one for Math (Linear Algebra), and good one for Russian History. I was always good at Math in school but started devoting much less time to it in university, so the result of the exam is not so surprising as it may seem. Now I’ll have to do a resit sometime in February. I’m going to prepare properly for the resit and get a good or excellent grade. Hope I manage that!

I haven’t gone skating since something like Jan 10. The first exam was on Jan 9, so I had no time to play ice hockey at the time. What’s more, it was extremely cold in the Moscow region. It was about -28C for about a week. This is an anomaly for Moscow! That’s very cold. If it’d been warmer I’d probably have gone skating once but it’s very easy to get sick at such low temperature. The main reason that you can get sick quite easily is that you have to inhale a load of very cold air. You can get a serious sore throat by skating at such low temperature. Maybe, it’s good that it was so cold when I was doing exams because I was spending all my time studying. On the other hand, I felt that I needed to do a little physical exercise. Nevertheless, now that I’m having winter holidays I can skate as much as I want. My friends have done all of their exams as well, so we can all go skating now. The temperature’s quite good for hockey – about -5C.


What have you been doing since you last emailed me? I’m sure that your life’s been extremely interesting. Being an actress, pianist, artist, and singer (did I miss anything? J) is rarely boring. I liked English, Math, PE, History (though I only like Russian History starting from 1917), and IT when I was in school. Now that I go to university, I’ve included a few more subjects on the list of my favorites. These are Philosophy, Economics, and Swimming. What do you think of my favorites?

Having done the exams, we all felt like celebrating the end of the exams. Even though I failed Linear Algebra I still wanted to celebrate. Those were my first exams in university and they were very helpful. Now we all understand that we must work hard before exams, so exams will be easy to prepare for.
A friend of mine invited a few students from my group to his cottage in the Moscow area. We all agreed to go. The cottage’s about 17km away from Moscow, so he asked his driver to pick us up near the university and drive us to his cottage. This friend of mine’s very rich, so it’s small wonder that he has a personal driver and a very expensive car. He has a Range Rover that costs about $113.000! I’d never ridden on such an expensive car before! That was great. Once we got to his cottage, we were all amazed by its size and the place where it was located. The house’s located in the most prestigious place of the Moscow area. I’ve no idea how much it is to buy a house there. But I can say that it’s extremely expensive. There’s a sauna, small swimming pool, billiards, and lots of other awesome things in his house! I had a great time there! We all did. We drank Mexican beer “Corona” and Absent (have you ever heard of Absent? As far as I know, it’s illegal in the States) We did plenty more things in his house but writing about this will take me hours! It’s a pity that we spent only one day there! (we arrived closer to the evening and left at about 3pm the next day). We owe so much to Alex (that’s the guy’s name whose cottage we went to).
Well, I better be going now! Talk to you soon!
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I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #23 Posted on: May 02, 2019, 01:23:01 PM
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Привет, как ты ? ты в порядке ?  :D

Major fuck up time :D  Robert something tells me you accidentally sent a private e-mail as a forum message or a PM as a public message -  :D :D :D  Either that or you've had a few shots of Vodka, either way you will likely realise it eventually :D

Don't worry though, I've done that too, only in my case it was far more embarrassing, I actually sent a FB messenger text to the wrong contact - don't worry mate, I did not read all of it :P


« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 01:30:35 PM by Darkstar2 » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) Dragonite
Reply #24 Posted on: May 03, 2019, 08:08:46 PM
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That's unfortunate to hear. Your contributions so far are appreciated, and I wish you good luck on any future projects you engage with (or start by your own). I also hope you improve your soft skills, so that this kind of clash doesn't happen again.
I respectfully disagree with Darkstar2 instance, though. I don't see this as a free speech issue - people aren't making you unable to talk, or attempting to censor what you say. You're completely free to write your thoughts to a blog of your own, or publish them on social media as you desire. Your patches to ENIGMA (I assume) won't be rejected neither. However, it seems that your behavior clashed with the rest of the team. This feels more like they are showing you the way out because they couldn't stand it anymore.
Disclaimer: I don't use any of the chat channels for ENIGMA. I've seen posts by you here that came off as rude (to me) - I'm assuming the others are talking about that.

This is actually about a skilled and talented coder, who's also respected among GameMaker users, sending pull requests to ENIGMA only for fundies to annoy that person off.
Please tell me you are not talking about YellowAfterlife...
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Offline (Male) cheeseboy
Reply #25 Posted on: May 03, 2019, 09:19:21 PM

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Please tell me you are not talking about YellowAfterlife...

Ya, I convinced YAL to contribute something and yet he also lists me as the cause for him leaving (For making a joke about quitting his job to contribute more.) Also, Josh has claims I scared him off despite him being openly emo past few months. Josh also claims I've scared off other developers but honestly any devs that left, left due to lack of progress from Josh. Even though I fight w/ Robert and TKG they still contribute. The have a false narrative of me being poking fun at people is scaring away devs but in reality, our good devs all left due to lack of contributions from Josh. Yes I like to poke fun and be abrasive but I've always been far more helpful and forthright in trying to help people contribute than any of the people who casted me out.

TKG and I fought like dogs and cats but even he'd admit I still answered any technical questions he had even in the face of him being a complete asshat who refused to listen.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 09:25:04 PM by cheeseboy » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) Dragonite
Reply #26 Posted on: May 03, 2019, 09:53:31 PM
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Please tell me you are not talking about YellowAfterlife...

Ya, I convinced YAL to contribute something and yet he also lists me as the cause for him leaving (For making a joke about quitting his job to contribute more.) Also, Josh has claims I scared him off despite him being openly emo past few months. Josh also claims I've scared off other developers but honestly any devs that left, left due to lack of progress from Josh. Even though I fight w/ Robert and TKG they still contribute. The have a false narrative of me being poking fun at people is scaring away devs but in reality, our good devs all left due to lack of contributions from Josh. Yes I like to poke fun and be abrasive but I've always been far more helpful and forthright in trying to help people contribute than any of the people who casted me out.

TKG and I fought like dogs and cats but even he'd admit I still answered any technical questions he had even in the face of him being a complete asshat who refused to listen.

That's just... very unfortunate. That's the best I can say.
YAL's relevance for the whole community around Game Maker cannot be understated. He has built a lot of cool stuff (many of them free software). Most notable ones are GMLive (a fully functional GML interpreter that allowed you to live edit your code), and sfGML (a Haxe->GML compiler that allows you to use high level language features with GM projects). I can't think of anyone better from GM community that could join ENIGMA, not even former programmers from YoYoGames.

Well, what's done it's done. Hope you sort things out with other members and you all can get out of this without hard feelings for each other.
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Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #27 Posted on: May 04, 2019, 04:53:39 AM

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Yes to the above. I just want to clarify, what fundies said immediately at the time he left wasn't that bad. With fundies it just becomes the icing on the cake because he had said other stuff to YAL. Plus YAL might have just been passively reading stuff he was saying to other people. I mean it is painful to read fundies' comments sometimes.

Also, I am quite happy to see Josh actually take some action on something. I sort of get frustrated with people who sometimes expect the world from the project and also kind of abuse our site/repo/community. It reflects poorly on us when we tolerate it. In this regard, fundies is still the icing on the cake, and not the only thing that has bothered me personally.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 05:00:38 AM by Goombert » Logged
I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #28 Posted on: May 04, 2019, 10:13:03 PM
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Robert, you seem to have ignored that you sent a personal and very private e-mail on the public forum instead, are you aware of this ? :P

Also why the heck did the title of this topic change ? It's so cheesy now   I could make a very good pun on the title itself on the making love to the project part, but I know 100% that I will be misinterpreted so yeah....

I preferred the old title because it is more representative of the topic re: someone leaving and not someone fucking it - because nobody makes "love" nowadays they "FUCK" :p
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Offline (Male) Josh @ Dreamland
Reply #29 Posted on: May 04, 2019, 10:18:02 PM

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That's what sucks so bad about this, fundies. You're always very helpful, and you're always very irritating. And sure, oftentimes, you're trying to be playful, or maybe the person in question has earned your particular variety of caustic honesty, but it doesn't matter. The bottom line is, you make it unpleasant for prospective contributors to be in the chat. I feel it, Robert feels it, YAL feels it. Maybe, as you say, YAL had other reasons to leave and you were just the straw that broke the camel's back. Generally, you can fix that with an apology. You've gotten better about giving those, and no one has thrown them back in your face (except maybe Rusky, because yeah, that bridge is going to take a thousand years to repair). An important aspect of apologizing is not repeatedly doing it again.

You should also recognize that Rusky isn't the only person crying to me about you. I can't imagine you disputing that when shit heats up, you tend to escalate it. Actually, I can imagine you disputing that, because every time I point it out to you, you claim you were just doing tit-for-tat, eye-for-an-eye. That doesn't make the situation any better and it's not how you earn points with people. Logic is normally on your side in these disputes, but logic seldom has bearing on feelings, and while you discount them, feelings are a huge factor in when and how users will contribute to the project. You can't just write them off as bullshit; they factor into reality.

If you would get better at recognizing when enough is enough, the world would be your oyster. People can be fun. You can rib people. But you have to know who you can rib about what. Everyone has their own sore spots. You can call those "triggers" and pretend that this is all some conspiracy-level kindergarten feel-good horseshit. I will not deny that such a camp exists; every movement has extremists. But that's not at all what this is about. We're not trying to participate in some movement. You don't even go against the morals of the movement. The primary reason I continued to put up with your behavior (in spite of complaints) is because you were never deliberately racist or sexist or otherwise disparaging against any group. We're looking at the feelings of the rational individuals you choose to attack. You even boast it as your special talent—finding people's sore spots and using them as leverage. You do this regularly as a form of engagement, like some child who believes that every kind of attention is positive attention. And it brings a lot of people to resent you.

To be clear, this isn't about any one person. The question is, if you stop fostering this environment of perpetual antagonism on the Discord, will more contributors show up?

And unfortunately, there's only one way to answer that, because you just will not leave people alone. It may be that you honestly are incredibly bad at handling social situations. That would be pretty sad, and you're getting no benefit of the doubt there from Rusky and co because (A) he's sick to death of you, and (B) all of us are convinced that you are smart enough to where you shouldn't be so bad at picking up social cues. You need to recognize that you can't rationalize away how people feel. It's so simple not to bother people. No one's forcing you to interact with them; if you ignore them and stop taking jabs at them, you'll get along fine. Even Rusky would eventually move on. No one on the Discord is so petty that just the act of you speaking upsets them.

This isn't a big change I'm asking for. And you're not even 30; you're by no means too old to make simple changes to the way you conduct yourself to just get along with people. And yes, some of the people I'll be asking you to get along with have short fuses, and a couple of them appear to be legitimately stupid. But there's dignity in being polite with belligerent idiots, and I've seen you do that. It sucks when it becomes a routine, and if you see that happening, I will gladly ban those people. But generally, the really dumb ones leave quickly. It's people like Rusky that you have trouble with. It's when you see potential for contribution that you start to harass people.

Don't.

Just because someone is capable of assisting doesn't mean they are willing, and just because they are willing doesn't mean they are eager. You can (and, if we're being honest, do) get a lot of mileage out of Rusky. And if you don't, well, Robert does. I'll try not to speak too much for Rusky and YAL, but I'm sure they'd agree with much of this: I work all day. This request I have for you? The laborious task of getting along with others? That's rolled into my job. When I get back from work, I don't have a whole lot of energy to spend actively contributing to a project; the energy I have will depend on whether I've been putting up more with bitching from my customers, my toolchain, my coworkers and superiors, or just life at large (mower breaks down, ants on my fucking table, junk everywhere, shit to replace). Everyone has their own life to live on top of whatever volunteering they're doing on this project. You seem to already be under the impression that you are not the only cause of YAL's despair on that particular day, so it seems you're aware of this to some degree. But when someone's already had enough, your ribbing (even if you're joking) can be too much. And again, simply apologizing and then backing off is likely all it takes to fix that.

I will cede that, yes, many of our problems fall on me. I am not a manager. Most of the glue that holds this project together is the fact that our contributors and users all want this project to succeed. This has made it possible for me to be very low-touch in terms of disciplinary action and making sure the team gets along—functions required of a conventional manager. I'm not well-equipped in general, and you are a challenge to which even a typical manager is not well-fit. That's something I could improve. Apart from that, I will grant that canthelp left because I left. But what you should acknowledge is that I left because while I was my busiest with college, you were giving me tons of shit every day and then explicitly told me to leave because you apparently thought that you and canthelp would just run the project without me. Or maybe that was just another cry for attention. I don't remember, but I actually did completely leave, for over a month if I recall. I caught up on my work nicely without that headache in my life. But without me there, whether because they lost hope for the project or didn't want to put up with you, they left. But you can't deny your role in that, because I wouldn't have left if you hadn't made being there so unpleasant.

Same story for YAL. Maybe he had a bad day at work. Maybe he was tired. You made it unpleasant for him to be in our Discord. He left. Was it logical? Maybe not; he clearly cares about this project, and he could have blocked you or muted the channel instead. Is it justified? Absolutely. No one needs that stress in their life.

From where I'm standing, the easiest way to lower stress was to remove you from the equation. Personally, I feel as though it's worked well; I don't have to put up with your banter until I'm good and ready to open this thread and see what you're on about. Robert's actually sending me things in the main Discord instead of over chat and email. There's a sense of peace and normalcy. Why do you insist on taking that away?

You are one of the best contributors this project has had. I would love to have you back any time after you're done waging war on prospective contributors' personal sense of peace (this includes Robert and me). There are ways to motivate people without inducing stress, anger, or anxiety. This isn't just feel-good karma mumbo-jumbo; burnout is real, and it slows and craters projects.

Until then... good luck.
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"That is the single most cryptic piece of code I have ever seen." -Master PobbleWobble
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -Evelyn Beatrice Hall, Friends of Voltaire
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