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Author Topic: ENIGMA progress  (Read 8368 times)
Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #30 Posted on: August 08, 2015, 09:40:09 PM

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raymond married debora long before i met amy, they have a healthy marriage while me and amy just broke up. I got gored by a bull in the rear, the crazy frog lady who i had escape from out her window, and dads disgusting nudist lodge, everyone makes fun of that quirk i have with silverwear, raymond still has my foam finger, mom ignores me and dad actually get along with my brother sometimes, of all the sad misfortunes i have address amoung many more not addressed, one hated outshines all the rest combined, and double baby. I absolutely hate how EVERYONE LOVES MY HARRI'ER BROTHER RAYMOND!

nobody cares robert. see what i did there?

« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 09:50:45 PM by time-killer-games » Logged
Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #31 Posted on: August 08, 2015, 10:43:18 PM

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@BPzeBanshee

i believe the elephants are stomping so loud that they still can't hear us, which is odd bc u cant hear text u read it and they can read everyone else's sext just fine but we all know why that is, the reason is unfortuneate

this is why all the new members run away, the devs think for themselves and not what actually matters, the audience, the ppl who would want to use it and grow the community, not just the contributors, which would be the minority of members in most open source game engine communities. Here the game engine's devs themselves and the contributors is what the whole community is made of, like, 5 ppl, and theres a reason for that, which i just explained again in this here post

expect the community to grow at all with only the current staff's interests considered? trust me, this will die before its out of beta the road its heading. Ive tried staying positive but dang.

y'all need Shrek..

« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 10:59:56 PM by time-killer-games » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #32 Posted on: August 09, 2015, 07:11:41 AM

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TKG: Please, post offtopic in the offtopic forum only. And it cannot actually "die" if the only ones interested in the project is developers. It can die if the only ones interested in the project are the users from community. I agree that a lot of things need to change, like releases, the site, more bugfixes instead of features and so on. But that is not done by one person alone.
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Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #33 Posted on: August 09, 2015, 07:45:36 AM

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This isn't as big of a problem you put it to be. First, Windows 10 finally has a built-in package manager, so looking forward to that. Second, there really isn't that big of an issue of providing mingw in an installer together with "Additional". I think the current method works quite good.
I've seen it already and I don't think I care, it will take some time for it to take effect either way. I really would just rather use Linux which solved all of these problems a long time ago. I don't switch to Linux full time because I really do need things like Word which does happen to be more reliable than Google Doc's or Open/Libre Office. While I may be exaggerating the problems they are very real and I think you are undervaluing them. There are a large number of complaints about C++ but most of them Bjarne Stroustrup dismisses except for a standardized ABI. I don't mind coding in C++ at all and I did make a number of substantial improvements to ENIGMA's engine including starting that model class (though I've learned much more C++ since then) but this really turns me off from trying to build cross-platform applications or applications to be distributed in the language.
http://www.stroustrup.com/slashdot_interview.html
Quote from: Bjarne Stroustrup
The compatibility with C at the system interface level has encouraged people to use C-style strings, arrays, and structs, where they would have been better off with some higher-level abstractions presented as classes or templates. Instead of leaving the low-level facilities at the system level and within the implementations of classes, people have let the low-level constructs - and pointers to them - permeate their designs. Type errors, wild pointers, array bounds errors, and memory leaks are the obvious results. Lots of macros and casts often adds to the obscurity of the code. It saddens me to see some of the unnecessary messes people get themselves into.

This is why I still really honestly like Java besides its amazing new MVC GUI API called JavaFX (which I am building some of my prototypes in). Java is still amazing in that you can generally build quick cross-platform applications, build them once, and deploy anywhere. This idiom only gets broken when you try to mix it with native code like ENIGMA which really sucks, it is the lowest common denominator, and gives you the benefits of neither Java nor C++. Regardless I agree with Mr. Stroustrup 100% on everything he's said there.

Quote from: TheExDeus
I'm willing to do that. I think you even posted some tutorial or something how you did it, so if you could link it then I will start doing it. Internet isn't a problem where I live and 100mb's is really not an issue speed wise. Only need to find a good place to host - I think hosting on Dropbox isn't the best way. Maybe we have a way to host on ENIGMA's website? I don't know how much space we have though, Josh should know.
The topic is pinned in "General ENIGMA" and I would appreciate it if someone else would build the ZIP occasionally. Josh could obviously give you FTP access to the server but I've just realized that we could just upload these to GitHub directly if Josh enables it on the repository. He does it this way for Calico (click "Releases"). I think we should upload the ENIGMA binary releases directly to GitHub since that is a standard/more common approach.
https://github.com/enigma-dev/Calico-Icon
http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=1399.0

Quote from: TheExDeus
I can compile ENIGMA (the plugin) on 64bit, but of course the LGM stuff needs to be changed too in that case.
That would be great as well because then users would at least be able to download a 32bit and 64bit version of ENIGMA and they wouldn't have to specifically install a 32 JDK/Java. You would have to recompile all of ENIGMA's plugins though and I also think you need to replace the jna.jar with the 64bit version. I hit too many errors and incompatibilities between MinGW64 and 32 and finally just gave up on packing it. It's sitting on my desktop and was the last thing I was trying to accomplish before I stopped contributing for this period of time. Largely because of my poor internet, if someone else were to begin packing the zip or just taking care of it instead of me by some standard/methodical approach as I did before it would make it easier for me to contribute to ENIGMA again in the future. I am actually mainly still interested in LateralGM's development so if I could maintain improvements and bugfixes to that and delegate the ENIGMA matters to someone else (regarding packaging LGM and everything) it would be a lot of work off my plate and free me up for more contributions to LGM.

In my honest opinion I still like ENIGMA on Linux because it just uses the package manager, you install the necessary components one time and then ENIGMA just works. You can easily replace the lateralgm.jar and the entire ENIGMA framework just as it is expected.

Quote from: TheExDeus
Yeah, finish the CLI would be a good start. I think the only big thing missing there is rasterization of fonts? All the other things are either done or should be easy.
Yes that is one thing that it needs but it is debatable whether the ENIGMA engine should provide such functionality as well, perhaps through a plugin because GM does have functions to add fonts at runtime that we never implemented and I believe Studio added TTF font support or w/e.

Quote from: TKG
@BPzeBanshee
Yes calm down TKG, you're being eccentric. You know some of the prototypes I've been working on and one of them is about to be released open source in a few days. It is a library that is a necessary component to bigger things I am developing and are ENIGMA related.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 07:57:33 AM by Robert B Colton » Logged
I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #34 Posted on: August 10, 2015, 04:57:38 AM

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I've seen it already and I don't think I care, it will take some time for it to take effect either way. I really would just rather use Linux which solved all of these problems a long time ago. I don't switch to Linux full time because I really do need things like Word which does happen to be more reliable than Google Doc's or Open/Libre Office. While I may be exaggerating the problems they are very real and I think you are undervaluing them. There are a large number of complaints about C++ but most of them Bjarne Stroustrup dismisses except for a standardized ABI. I don't mind coding in C++ at all and I did make a number of substantial improvements to ENIGMA's engine including starting that model class (though I've learned much more C++ since then) but this really turns me off from trying to build cross-platform applications or applications to be distributed in the language.
http://www.stroustrup.com/slashdot_interview.html
Good read, but I agree with stroustup. Most of the "issues with C++" are either made up or just stems from not actually using C++. Like I work with a guy who doesn't like C++, because using STL relies you on "others people bugs", while himself writes everything in C with pointers and can hardly make code that doesn't explode. When I finally showed him how even a ranged for loop creates more optimized code than he could even write, he finally started looking more kindly on it.

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The topic is pinned in "General ENIGMA" and I would appreciate it if someone else would build the ZIP occasionally. Josh could obviously give you FTP access to the server but I've just realized that we could just upload these to GitHub directly if Josh enables it on the repository. He does it this way for Calico (click "Releases"). I think we should upload the ENIGMA binary releases directly to GitHub since that is a standard/more common approach.
I will do it when I get something stable. I'm playing with compiler too now so I can pack the newest one with 64bit's, but I have problems with LGM. Like it crashes when I have a different compiler in PATH. How can that even be? It works if the /bin I point to is the one coming with the installer now, but when I point to /bin from Dragons release it just crashes on startup. I don't even compile anything with it as the .dll already exists. This kind of weird LGM stuff is something I have to deal with, but as I don't code in Java it's hard for me to debug. Maybe you can at least give we LGM and plugin with symbols? Because now it trows like 5 SIGSEV's on startup when debugging with GDB, but it has no backtrace as there aren't any symbols I guess. Lookee here: http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=2561.new#new
edit: It looks like I tries to call something to do with the compiler on startup whether it is needed or not, because a third compiler I tried adding in PATH made LGM trow something about incompatible .dll even though IT WAS NOT even recompiled. This is a strange behavior indeed. The thing about LGM compiling the .dll actually has never worked for me in Windows. I have always needed to do it manually trough shell. So maybe either a setting to disable this? It would make startup faster as well.

Quote
That would be great as well because then users would at least be able to download a 32bit and 64bit version of ENIGMA and they wouldn't have to specifically install a 32 JDK/Java. You would have to recompile all of ENIGMA's plugins though and I also think you need to replace the jna.jar with the 64bit version. I hit too many errors and incompatibilities between MinGW64 and 32 and finally just gave up on packing it. It's sitting on my desktop and was the last thing I was trying to accomplish before I stopped contributing for this period of time. Largely because of my poor internet, if someone else were to begin packing the zip or just taking care of it instead of me by some standard/methodical approach as I did before it would make it easier for me to contribute to ENIGMA again in the future. I am actually mainly still interested in LateralGM's development so if I could maintain improvements and bugfixes to that and delegate the ENIGMA matters to someone else (regarding packaging LGM and everything) it would be a lot of work off my plate and free me up for more contributions to LGM.
I will probably try creating both 32bit and 64bit installers. The difference only being the .jar's and .dll's. Both will come with 64bit compiler (which itself is 32bit exe) and both 32bit and 64bit "Additional's" so you can compile both from any installation of ENIGMA.

Quote
In my honest opinion I still like ENIGMA on Linux because it just uses the package manager, you install the necessary components one time and then ENIGMA just works. You can easily replace the lateralgm.jar and the entire ENIGMA framework just as it is expected.
That is great and hopefully this is how Windows10 will allow you to work. I have already mentioned that Package Manager is the only thing I really miss about Linux.

Quote
Yes that is one thing that it needs but it is debatable whether the ENIGMA engine should provide such functionality as well, perhaps through a plugin because GM does have functions to add fonts at runtime that we never implemented and I believe Studio added TTF font support or w/e.
I have looked at it and I think http://www.freetype.org/ is the way to go. I will at some point try implementing it if nobody else does.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 05:22:57 AM by TheExDeus » Logged
Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #35 Posted on: August 10, 2015, 09:42:14 AM

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Quote from: TheExDeus
Good read, but I agree with stroustup. Most of the "issues with C++" are either made up or just stems from not actually using C++. Like I work with a guy who doesn't like C++, because using STL relies you on "others people bugs", while himself writes everything in C with pointers and can hardly make code that doesn't explode. When I finally showed him how even a ranged for loop creates more optimized code than he could even write, he finally started looking more kindly on it.
Yeah, I pretty much agree as well. The only C++ arguments I've really heard are that it's difficult (totally not but a lot to learn though). I also disagree with your coworker because I encourage the use of the STL because it's written by very smart computer scientists who account for things that you may not consider and also does logarithmic growth (averages out the complexity of a resize etc etc). That's one of the benefits of using code by someone else and also that you are guaranteed for it to work specific ways across compilers and platforms. However I do kind of see his point too because I really hate waiting on JavaFX bug reports to get filed (I've filed about 20 on this new framework) and I know none of them will get fixed until JDK 9 which is a whole year from now. I was actually considering joining the OpenJDK project because I already have fixes available for the bugs I've discovered.

Quote from: TheExDeus
I will do it when I get something stable. I'm playing with compiler too now so I can pack the newest one with 64bit's, but I have problems with LGM. Like it crashes when I have a different compiler in PATH. How can that even be? It works if the /bin I point to is the one coming with the installer now, but when I point to /bin from Dragons release it just crashes on startup. I don't even compile anything with it as the .dll already exists. This kind of weird LGM stuff is something I have to deal with, but as I don't code in Java it's hard for me to debug. Maybe you can at least give we LGM and plugin with symbols? Because now it trows like 5 SIGSEV's on startup when debugging with GDB, but it has no backtrace as there aren't any symbols I guess. Lookee here: http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=2561.new#new
edit: It looks like I tries to call something to do with the compiler on startup whether it is needed or not, because a third compiler I tried adding in PATH made LGM trow something about incompatible .dll even though IT WAS NOT even recompiled. This is a strange behavior indeed. The thing about LGM compiling the .dll actually has never worked for me in Windows. I have always needed to do it manually trough shell. So maybe either a setting to disable this? It would make startup faster as well.
That would be ideal so the same compiler is used for both versions. I can't really say much about the random crashes that's actually all in JNA (we do not use JNI, JNI is older) if you are getting SIGSEGV. LateralGM will never throw a SIGSEGV by itself because it uses no other native code. Also in Java there is no concept of debugging symbols, the code is JIT'd to byte code which is fed to a virtual machine. Complete stack traces with the file name and line number exist for exceptions because of this. So in a way a Java application always has debugging symbols (though not really because it's a different concept). So any segmentation fault is either through invoking native code with JNA or a bug in the JVM.

Quote from: TheExDeus
I will probably try creating both 32bit and 64bit installers. The difference only being the .jar's and .dll's. Both will come with 64bit compiler (which itself is 32bit exe) and both 32bit and 64bit "Additional's" so you can compile both from any installation of ENIGMA.
That is ideal because then users can just install that compiler as well to offer a lighter weight ZIP. Not that the size matters since you are offering to upload but the download size may matter to them which is also something to consider.

Quote from: TheExDeus
That is great and hopefully this is how Windows10 will allow you to work. I have already mentioned that Package Manager is the only thing I really miss about Linux.
Yeah I was the one that originally posted it on the forums. As far as I know it is a fork of OneGet but I don't know if it's actually Microsoft developers working on it. As far as I am aware you are also unable to use it with anything but power shell. Also I feel that Windows 10 is better than 8 but 7 still trumps it for a desktop OS despite all of its fancy features that I do actually like. Some of the features I like is the package manager, return of glass/Aero theme and start button, the package manager thingy, and some others. The things I don't like are forced updates which are causing tons of problems for people including endless reboot cycles. I also do not like Apps like the Xbox one which I heard opens automatically when you start playing a game and tries to record it without you even asking it to by default. Just a bunch of annoying settings like that is why I turned around and decided not to upgrade. Not to mention the privacy of the thing, the whole OS is clearly a giant NSA playground. Call me crazy sure, I don't care if the NSA is watching me or stealing passwords or working with Microshaft to make back doors, but OMG they are so annoying about the way they do it lol.
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I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Unknown gender) egofree
Reply #36 Posted on: August 11, 2015, 01:08:03 PM
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I didn't forget my promise to work on LateralGM. I was thinking at first to start last week, but in the end i will start tomorrow. Before trying to debug LateralGM, i will make a simple project to test how JNA work.
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Offline (Unknown gender) BPzeBanshee
Reply #37 Posted on: August 12, 2015, 08:26:24 AM
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Stupid question from me and I'll shut up again: how does one actually get the GL3.3NormalMatrix branch running in Windows at the moment? I can get the normal ENIGMA seemingly fine in my existing folder but as soon as I replace the enigma-dev with the branch one, add the Windows utilities in and try to run a Hello World I get compile errors - http://pastebin.com/zzP8h44x. Am I supposed to rather overwrite the former with the latter?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 08:30:23 AM by BPzeBanshee » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #38 Posted on: August 12, 2015, 07:28:37 PM
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I agree with Robert, windows 10 is a fucked up mess.  I did use the tech preview and it was stable and fast, but no cunt is going to FORCE updates on me and have me reboot all the time. Sorry Micro$oft but you blokes screwed up again majorly, haven't you been listening !?!?!?! I agree, Windows 7 is still the best option for desktop OS.
Mind you I have recently upgraded to the latest stuff and a new DX12 graphic card, so I might install Winshite 10 dual boot to play DX12 games, as DX12 will offer good optimisations.

Other than that, leaving holes, forcing stuff, they are regressing these prats, not improving.  they give us back stuff but taking away some also.  There is adware and spying in win10, you lot didn't think M$ would give you a free OS for a year just like that right ?  upgrading to windows 10 is the equivalent of the mark of the beast.
What utter shite !!!
Major blow to us win7 users for making DX12 Win10 exclusive.
It's VISTA fiasco all over again!
And WTF, this xbox one rubbish and
recording games without bloody asking me, fuck you Microsoft.
Why not let your users make the decisions!!!!

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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #39 Posted on: August 12, 2015, 09:49:26 PM

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My view on the win8-10 stuff - if they wouldve just stuck with windows 7 with everything the same but with better hardware and DX, my Windows experience would still be within the primary comfort zone.
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Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #40 Posted on: August 13, 2015, 01:19:26 PM

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Stupid question from me and I'll shut up again: how does one actually get the GL3.3NormalMatrix branch running in Windows at the moment? I can get the normal ENIGMA seemingly fine in my existing folder but as soon as I replace the enigma-dev with the branch one, add the Windows utilities in and try to run a Hello World I get compile errors - http://pastebin.com/zzP8h44x. Am I supposed to rather overwrite the former with the latter?
The error means you probably didn't copy the /Additional/ folder. That has the zlib and other dependencies ENIGMA needs. One way to get this would be pulling the git branch or downloading from git page and extracting over your ENIGMA. Note that you will need to delete the .dll as well as it needs to be recompiled (there were changes in it too).

NOTE: Trying to use this branch now will probably fail. My changes relies on newer GCC (the compiler) and MAKE. Thus if you do overwrite your current ENIGMA it is still very possible you won't be able to compile a game anymore. I will try packaging a new ENIGMA installer at some point.
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Offline (Unknown gender) BPzeBanshee
Reply #41 Posted on: August 13, 2015, 11:13:43 PM
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NOTE: Trying to use this branch now will probably fail. My changes relies on newer GCC (the compiler) and MAKE. Thus if you do overwrite your current ENIGMA it is still very possible you won't be able to compile a game anymore. I will try packaging a new ENIGMA installer at some point.
Ah, this is probably my main cause for failure. Once I realised I missed the Windows dependencies I did the overwrite approach and got a different error that seemed to suggest something along those lines. I've compiled and messed around with MAME before so this might help me tinker in the right direction.

On the subject of Windows 10, as a retail worker I do not trust it. I crashed one of the display machines at JB HiFi just by navigating around with the mouse and I've already seen customers do returns on products where I work because Windows 10 screwed something up in the install process and wouldn't let them revert it back (deleting the factory default image of the system that Win8.1 uses for it's "Reset system" option is also bad jujus). Win7 and XP were pretty cagey initially though - give it a few months and we'll see how stable it is, NSA playground/control panel issues notwithstanding.
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Offline (Male) HitCoder
Reply #42 Posted on: September 02, 2015, 05:02:28 AM

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I really like your futute ideas, ExDeus, and I don't see a need for GM support in all honesty, so it's all good there. I'd feel much more comfortable just from the IDE being improved, it's the only drawback with Enigma. I look forwards to future changes, and I was just thinking about your window GUI being used to make an IDE in Enigma, as I have heard suggested before. I'm not sure how I would make an IDE in Enigma that interacts with Enigma's system files however, but I honestly feel that following GM is no longer the way to go, and I would much prefer an IDE that looks more like Eclipse, or anything with tabs and an explorer panel for resources than it does as an MDI.
Then again, the comparison would be minor I guess.. I just feel like the current IDE is pretty clunky.
Aside from that, I don't use Enigma for the GM compatibility; I use it because it actually uses code, rather than D&D alone, and because it's available on Linux as well as Windows.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 05:05:36 AM by HitCoder » Logged
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Offline (Unknown gender) FroggestSpirit
Reply #43 Posted on: September 05, 2015, 08:10:25 PM

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I'm a fan of LGM aside from the bugs and speed. I've always felt that it was a lot easier to organize code in it (within objects, step events, etc). I can't remember the last time I actually used the DnD functions though. I wish I knew enough to help with development, and maybe it's something I should take the time to learn, because in all honesty, I feel like portability and stability are the major pullbacks from me using ENIGMA for a full size game. It has the potential, and it's got to be the one coding software that I can work the quickest in (assuming stability). I want to see this grow, and I feel it's time to cut the ties to GM, because it can be so much more, and it already is improving quite nicely.
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This isn't easy to say, but…
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