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Author Topic: Create games for mobile platforms is possible with enigma??  (Read 7068 times)
Offline (Unknown gender) francot514
Posted on: January 14, 2015, 09:29:29 PM
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Hi, i want to ask you if is possible to create games for mobile platforms like android, using actual enigma version, and if it is what should i need to do to achieve it...
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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #1 Posted on: January 14, 2015, 11:42:02 PM

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Nope. But I wish.

Edit. They are planning it but that is a big IF and WHEN.
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Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #2 Posted on: January 15, 2015, 08:23:10 AM

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francot, currently it's possible to do some hacking to get an Android game running but your GL3 graphics system is not entirely GLES 2.0 compliant yet. Once that happens we will can include an official Android bundle that will let you run the games in an emulator and compile for the platform.
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I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #3 Posted on: January 15, 2015, 01:40:40 PM
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Making an android game is one thing, but will ENIGMA ever be like GMS ? That is doubtful.  In GMS the mobile compiles are store compliant, allow ads and mobile specific functions.   To release stuff in the stores your app must be store ready/compliant.

You are better off with GMS for mobile compiling...
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Offline (Unknown gender) francot514
Reply #4 Posted on: January 15, 2015, 02:41:41 PM
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Yes i know GMS can do that, but that program is not free and only offer trial version for development software like mobiles app...
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #5 Posted on: January 15, 2015, 04:11:11 PM
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Yes i know GMS can do that, but that program is not free and only offer trial version for development software like mobiles app...

Yes that's the only downside indeed, it's not free, but you might have missed on their big discounts lately, they had huge discounts for GMS Pro and 50% off for their export modules.

ENIGMA is open source and free but it is dependent on contributors and time and availability/skill.  GMS is run by a company, fully staffed and paid for (though not exactly top wages, but that's another story!).  Looks like for now if you want store compliant android/IOS etc you are better off with GMS or another software that can do so.

The advantage of ENIGMA is the ease of use and familiarity to "GM" in many aspects, and that might be its biggest downfall too.  I too would love to see Android capability and android-complient store capabilities in ENIGMA as I have many projects I would like to eventually compile to android and not willing to get ripped off $299 to do so :P
even for the half price they sold it at.
The seasonal developers are screwed, it seems now GMS is getting more targeted for high caliber developers with big budgets.

Maybe one day ENIGMA will be multi platform, but realistically mate, don't hold your breath, it ain't happening anytime now or in a distant future.
Right now the contributor base for ENIGMA is very limited, and to get to the same compliant level as used by GMS would require lot of work and skill !

Cheers
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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #6 Posted on: January 15, 2015, 04:22:25 PM

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DS2 I dont use anything of which you call "appstore compliant" in my android games yet I have 6 of them live on amazon. You dont need ads, iAPs or any of that shit for them to accept your app.

Also fyi YYG is false advertising their Amazon functonality has been broken for the longest time and they arent going to fix it they told me straight up that if I want amazon related shit I need to make an extension and do all that myself.

What they are STILL advertising on their website about amazon/gamecircle -
https://www.yoyogames.com/studio/developer-services/engage

The truth - http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showtopic=614575

If your game is more than 50 MB GMStudio games cant be uploaded to Google Play because GMStudio doesnt support apk expansion files. YYG arent planning to fix this and HD games can easily break that size limit 50 MB is tiny as shit and a very low standard for games - http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showtopic=553433

So yeah when it comes to at least android enigma wont be much worse than gms once its stable
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 04:39:14 PM by time-killer-games » Logged
Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #7 Posted on: January 15, 2015, 07:49:06 PM

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Allow me to speak candidly for a minute here. If there is so much demand for all these platforms, why are there not more developers flocking here to make ENIGMA compatible and stable for these platforms? If there was really that much interest in or market for it then why has it not happened? It's just supply vs demand, the supply is limited and there doesn't seem to be any demand. Anybody is free to come here and fix whatever they have a problem with in ENIGMA, but nobody seems to, a few do, but not as many.

ENIGMA and LateralGM are so much more than what meets the eye, a large portion of the Game Maker infrastructure open source and freely available. Why hasn't more been done with it? I've come to assume there just is not enough interest. Take Linux for example and a lot of open source software on it like Libre or Open Office, the programs aren't great but there's enough demand to keep them actively developed. The developers here never really had any need for ENIGMA, that's an fundamental problem. Sorlok is a good example of the opposite of this, he had a specific objective and that was porting Iji and a lot of popular GM projects to other platforms and he managed to accomplish what he wanted. The real problem here is that this project has no clear objective, I've stopped using GM for a long time now, and I feel developers deserve a much better tool. My goal was only ever to help this project and those who needed help or needed something, and I still intend to carry on that agenda.

Finally, I agree with TKG, he may be a little comical at times, but he can also be an extremely reasonable and practical person. That is also absurd that YYG's advertises features that do not even work, they've been doing this since the release of GM: Studio. They never even finished their road map which someone posted about on the GMC, all they've managed to do is break more stuff and hurt the brand. But yet GM: S 2.0 is supposed to be coming? They still have a Delphi IDE, it will be a cold day in hell when GameMaker becomes relevant again.
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I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #8 Posted on: January 15, 2015, 11:43:33 PM
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Alrite, my turn to speak candidly.

First, Robert, the 9-12 year olds (the top demo group for GMS) might disagree with you and claim their GMS is so complete and has all the gayness (no offence, you know what I mean) they need to make their catch the clown and bouncing balls, and mario clones and shit, and Sooooo does everything. 

Normally the bigger cocks and narcissist wins......kinda awkward in this case but you do know what I mean in the end, the kids over at GMS want a finished product, they don't want to debug, code C++ or bother......and whilst ENIGMA has potential it is still far too buggy for most people without skill to solve problems hence the lack of interest.
and the problem with ENIGMA is 2 letters...GM......  Perhaps if ENIGMA was its own product , totally  different name, does same functionality and MORE, different sets of commands, etc, maybe people would be interested, but since its cock is tied with GMS' cock on a thin string, I guess people will go with the bigger denominator, GMS.

They took over from Mark Overmars and we all bloody thought they were going to make something half fucking decent out of it, instead decades later, they still are blaming the delphi pile of poo for them not evolving GM like they wanted to and blame old GM for their limits, REALLY ????? what the fuck did you lot do all these years ? They had ample time to do SHIT.

Now they adopt a new attitude, do your own bloody extension, they have the nerds do their dirty work and at the same time earning money !  I hear lots of people selling shit in the market place not being paid for months.  Agent Campbell a.k.a. lonewolf (the guy who deleted his account 2 times here!) he has probably one of the best extensions around and he is owed big 3 figures and was not paid yet......Who in their right fucked up mind would want to sell on the market place.

I was not aware about the alleged misleading advertising regarding amazon.  What I meant, Sammy, about the compliance is the compile is signed and ready to be dumped in the google play store, etc. I was not talking about ads, etc.  I mean yeah ok GMS is flawed on many levels and YYG is crap to deal with and their attitude stinks, but it is by all means ok for most people because people's standards are quite low.....what's a 9-12 year old going to want more than GMS delivers, how many GMS games did you play that you can HONESTLY say is commercial quality and worthy of buying.....Not much, I guess most you can count on your fingers.... and don't count the mario clones and all the illegal, stolen, ripped games..... I am talking original games.  Now in the age of HD and this motherfucker of a product does not support apk extension when a lot of the high-end games in the market has extended content, cut scenes, etc, something YYG does not support, BASIC functionality.....Let's see if GMS 2 supports native video.  Lonewolf did a BIG mistake to release his video engine - he should never have !!! He handed YYG the goods on a silver platter....why the FUCK should end users be doing the job YYG was supposed to do, BASIC functionality that should be included. they DID have video functionality.

What a shame Lonewolf's video engine cannot run in ENIGMA, he was so willing to work with ENIGMA to integrate it FREE....would have been great.  How much of a hypocrite would I end up being if I buy his engine in the market and use it in GMS...... I have projects in mind but might not have a choice, I feel bad about it because I want to support ENIGMA, unfortunately I cannot as a contributor due to my lack of knowledge on advanced levels, but I can see why some people prefer GMS, it sucks on so many levels but excels in some levels, for one, it is far more stable at the current time......

There I hope that candid enough lol!

That's my 25 micro bitcoin contribution of the day ! :D

Cheers

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Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #9 Posted on: January 16, 2015, 05:57:02 AM

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I for one don't needed or want 12yrlds here coming from GM. They can if they want, but if they only rage about how GM is better because it's more stable, then I don't need them. As Robert said, if someone wanted a stable mobile tool like GM, then they would come to ENIGMA and implement it. Yet the only ones who work on ENIGMA are people who want Windows and Linux support (and maybe Mac). Sorlok's idea is to port GM games to Linux, that is all he wants. And so he has done great job at fixing things and implementing things. I might implement GLES rendering system, but not for mobile, but ARM. Like I want my games/tools made in ENIGMA to work on RaspberryPi or Nvidia Jetson. I don't need them working on my phone. So this project, like most open source ones, are worked on based on personal needs. If I need to constantly make GUI's, I'll make a gui extension (which is coming along nicely by the way, I'll probably make a topic about it). If I need to make cool 3D effects, I'll work on shader support. Replicating GM has not been my goal in about 3 years, because I don't really have any GM version (besides 8.0) to test anything on. So I don't know what GM:S has or doesn't have. I just do what I need.
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Offline (Unknown gender) egofree
Reply #10 Posted on: January 16, 2015, 07:48:04 AM
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Why hasn't more been done with it? I've come to assume there just is not enough interest.

Let me be the devil's advocate for once. (As i have been also a big advocate of Enigma cause :P ) What you are telling is part of the problem, but i don't think it's the main problem. There are many problems in Enigma which prevent many people to get really interested. It has been poorly documented, had many bugs and had many functions not really unimplemented. If some functions are not implemented, that would not be a big problem IF it is documented, but very often it is not the case. In my experience on working as a developer on LateralGM, i've seen a lot of code without any comments and with poor naming (variables : a,b,c,etc). For an open-source project, that sucks. Also the relation between developers has not been always easy, if you remember : developers 'insulting' each other, saying that anyway they were leaving the project. But fortunately, this is a thing of the past. I feel also that often developers are working on their own without caring much of what the others are doing.
Also let me say that i always felt a lot of gratitude for all the work you have done. You spent so much time doing support, motivating and giving positive feedbacks to new users and you have done an outstanding work in many areas, but also often you are starting too much tasks at the same time without really finishing them. For instance, you started to work on constants, but you left reading of egm files broken and at first you were not concerned also to keep the compatibility of gmx projects saved with old versions of LateralGM. That will leave a very bad impression to users (I know that you didn't update the portable, but for linux users for instance, they will get the latest version of LateralGM). I don't pretend to be perfect, and of course i am doing mistakes too, but at least i try to do tests as much as i can and i feel we should do more testing before releasing new versions. My goal is not to rant against personally developers here but to make constructive critics in order to improve the situation.
To conclude it's not surprising that Enigma doesn't have more developers. Now, i want to say also that the situation has improved a lot thanks to your help, and with sorlok and all Enigma developers help. So i hope enigma future will still be brilliant.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 01:00:00 PM by egofree » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #11 Posted on: January 16, 2015, 12:52:26 PM
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I for one don't needed or want 12yrlds here coming from GM. They can if they want, but if they only rage about how GM is better because it's more stable, then I don't need them.

Well some people have the wrong idea and come to ENIGMA thinking it is a carbon copy of GM but free when it isn't, not exactly, because it is not 100% compatible.  and most people don't bother reading, so they won't read the fine print so to speak :D

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As Robert said, if someone wanted a stable mobile tool like GM, then they would come to ENIGMA and implement it.

Exactly, but that is the point, the user base of GMS is very young, I mean catch the clowns, mario clones, and the few lot who make original games, but not everyone there who makes half decent games has the coding skill, hence the main reason of using a tool like GM in the first place.  So the actual C++ developer base is scarce, you rarely will find them using GM/GMS, the proportion of people using said tools is slim. and those that exist will probably not want to touch ENIGMA.  Perhaps if ENIGMA was a different project of its own ... who knows.

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Yet the only ones who work on ENIGMA are people who want Windows and Linux support (and maybe Mac).

That's what I've been saying from beginning, the windows aspect is more attractive and less restrictive than the shite they have done with GMS. But the problem many people on their community want to export to multiple platforms at once.  and this gay mobile industry, it's become an epidemic so very few people care about desktop games anymore, and want everything to be released on mobile at least.  I mean people are so obsessed with mobiles now I mean they sleep with their smart phones, they work out at the gym with their bloody smartphone, I mean who's to say they don't shag with their phones clipped to their nob too.

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Sorlok's idea is to port GM games to Linux, that is all he wants. And so he has done great job at fixing things and implementing things.

Did Sorlok come from the GM community ?  If so, then he represents the tiny fraction I was talking about.  There are still people using drag & drop FFS.... you think they will want to contribute code ?  I mean I abandoned D&D early because I wanted to actually learn, unfortunately given life circumstances and lack of time, I could not continue my further learning of C++ and probably never will have the time.  It's one thing to know C++, one would also have to be familiar with graphics and sound programming and others to fix certain things need to be fixed.  It's good to know C++ but you need to be familiar with the graphics engine and how graphics work, full depth knowledge. 
 
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So this project, like most open source ones, are worked on based on personal needs.

Exactly - that's open source, however sadly, there are many times where things are implemented and some things fixed whilst breaking tons of past things that worked fine, and it is unfortunate because when said developers then leave and abandon the dog shite they left behind, and nobody left to wipe up the mess, it keeps piling up and eventually not much people have time or skill to fix it.  that's also the downside of open source.  It's all about team effort really, in an ideal world when a contributor starts working new stuff to an existing project should they break something it would have to be addressed right away and fixed and not piled up and "patched" with a band-aid (what Robert calls DUCK tape lol!) this has always been the philosophy behind GM from day 1...BREAK shit, PATCH shit, rinse recycle and repeat.

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Replicating GM has not been my goal in about 3 years, because I don't really have any GM version (besides 8.0) to test anything on.

You're kidding me Harri, you didn't actually get STUDIO ? Shame on you :D
To be fair, GMS did progress compared to GM8, a long way.  I took advantage of an early special and got GMS Studio Pro + HTML5 (that  I never end up using lol). and studio pro that I rarely used!

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So I don't know what GM:S has or doesn't have. I just do what I need.

It has a lot of quaking "ducks".....:D

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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #12 Posted on: January 16, 2015, 01:34:35 PM

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@everyone

I personally dont want the children here, they have to be at least 15, thats my sisters age and despite the immaturity I know some pretty chill 15 year olds because of her. But im not sure if I even want that. There's some really big weirdos on the GMC of that age group. I can mention their usernames in PM's their posts and games are dumb as shit make no sense and are hilarious.

A little off topic, isnt it weird that YYG hired Brawl as a sandbox moderator when he was  only 16? Or Honno who is 16 and hired for GameJolt...

@darkstar

you do realise in order to upload to GP it has to be 50 MB or less andother  than thatif it is an APK file and runs on at least one version of android and you specify what its built for there's really not much requirements left. Once enigma fully supports droid, there's next to nothing for the enigma team to do for getting games on GP. You are thinking of apple, their store is a LOT more strict.

@robert

Thanks for the compliment. I try to take it easy on ADHD about once a month when im on my meds
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 01:47:24 PM by time-killer-games » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #13 Posted on: January 16, 2015, 02:11:32 PM
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@everyone

I personally dont want the children here,

Unless they are the nerdy type who know 16 languages and can code C++ with their eyes closed - they do exist, but you are not LIKELY to find them on the GMC of all places. :D

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they have to be at least 15, thats my sisters age and despite the immaturity I know some pretty chill 15 year olds because of her.

Well age is a number, some kids are very mature for their age and skilled, whilst some adults are less mature than their age.  but the average of people you will find on those communities are people aiming to release 10,000 games - they aim for quantity and not quality.

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But im not sure if I even want that. There's some really big weirdos on the GMC of that age group. I can mention their usernames in PM's their posts and games are dumb as shit make no sense and are hilarious.

...and they will probably go viral some day and be the next big sensation and laugh the way to the bank.  Sometimes making no sense, dumb and being hilarious makes you rich, I can give you a lot of examples of that ! :D

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A little off topic, isnt it weird that YYG hired Brawl as a sandbox moderator when he was  only 16? Or Honno who is 16 and hired for GameJolt...

No it's not weird - it's just easier to brainwash pickney dem dat age Rasta ! :D  They are more easily hypnotised to bow to YYG as Gods and agree with everything they do and say.  :D

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@darkstar

you do realise in order to upload to GP it has to be 50 MB or less andother  than thatif it is an APK file and runs on at least one version of android and you specify what its built for there's really not much requirements left.

I have played a few android games that were over 300MB in size, yes I am aware about the initial file limit, those are the games you get which then download the extension to the game as the big file.  That was long ago but there was a nice 3D game with nice cut scenes and video, initial file was small but then it downloaded 300MB worth of files once run.... but since there are BIG games on GP why can't YYG support it, instead asking people to do their own - I mean it defeats the purpose don't you think ? :)

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Once enigma fully supports droid, there's next to nothing for the enigma team to do for getting games on GP. You are thinking of apple, their store is a LOT more strict.

Don't the apk have to be signed or have special signatures from an approved source first ?  What are all the advanced settings and shit that gets signed and embedded in the YYG APK then ?   They mentioned ages ago that there they have to abide by store compliency and it was their excuse for not including some features people asked.  or maybe it could have been rubbish, I mean the 9-12 year olds might have bought it :P in any case I am not entirely familiar with the mobile platform, as I am a windows person :D

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Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #14 Posted on: January 16, 2015, 02:43:39 PM

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Quote from: TKG
A little off topic, isnt it weird that YYG hired Brawl as a sandbox moderator when he was  only 16? Or Honno who is 16 and hired for GameJolt...
Then you have no reason to question why the GMC is not a constructive or friendly community.

Quote from: Darkstar2
what the fuck did you lot do all these years ?
I wasn't here yet, see the following topic:
http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=1031

Quote from: Darkstar2
What a shame Lonewolf's video engine cannot run in ENIGMA, he was so willing to work with ENIGMA to integrate it FREE....would have been great.
Uhm, first of all relax because it's not that complicated to port it. We just haven't decided on how to overload variant for pointers, it can be done with simple hacks but we haven't even discussed how to do it the proper way. That's only one issue, the number of Studio extensions using the new window_device() function I can probably count on my fingers. Second I was hoping after the major release of LGM that I would have time to implement the extension resource and make store extensions work, but I got side tracked with constants.

Quote from: Darkstar2
I mean yeah ok GMS is flawed on many levels and YYG is crap to deal with
Extensions and what not are actually one place ENIGMA shines. If some part of the engine is not store compliant you can just rip it out and rebuild your game because the whole thing is modular as well as open source. And for those reasons it's also extremely easy to wrap C++ in an extension and add new functions, in fact, it's extremely easy to add new functions to ENIGMA. My DirectShow extension is the perfect example of how easy it is to wrap functions and add them to ENIGMA.
https://github.com/enigma-dev/enigma-dev/blob/master/ENIGMAsystem/SHELL/Universal_System/Extensions/DirectShow/DSvideo.cpp#L32

Quote from: egofree
It has been poorly documented, had many bugs and had many functions not really unimplemented.
Yes, but what can you do about it egofree? What can be done to solve that? I was the biggest contributor to fixing the former with the Wiki documentation, which is not as complete as people would like but is still much better than nothing which is what we started with.
Drag and drop actions are fully documented, every single one.
http://enigma-dev.org/docs/Wiki/Action
Instance and motion is near completely documented except a few motion planning functions because I wanted Harri to document those since they were extraneous, some of the functions were also added in Studio.
http://enigma-dev.org/docs/Wiki/Instance_and_Motion_Functions
Date and time functions have been documented for ages.
http://enigma-dev.org/docs/Wiki/Date_and_Time_Functions
Data structures have been documented for ages.
http://enigma-dev.org/docs/Wiki/Data_Structure_Functions
File functions have been documented for ages.
http://enigma-dev.org/docs/Wiki/File_Functions
Input functions too.
http://enigma-dev.org/docs/Wiki/Input_Functions

There's not much more I can do, I've already done my fair share of the documentation. It takes a lot of effort to document all 2000 some functions and other constants and things and do it properly, this simply can not be done by a single person alone, especially one that now goes to college. I've also only been with this project for two years and besides contributing a substantial amount, GM itself did not start out completed it started as a simple animation program which was improved over subsequent years, from 1999 to about 2008/9 when GM8.1 was released, approximately a decade to reach the point of what GM is today, YYG's is of course the de-evolution of that decade.

In case none of you remember, this is LGM just 2 years ago.

This is LGM today.


Now the point of this is not to brag about how much I've contributed, but to put it into perspective for you guys about how much work it actually takes, you simply can not expect miracles. It takes time, skill, and dedication to pull this off, but the goal is never only money as has been repeatedly stated, my main objective was just to see how great I could make the software, and whether or not I may have failed I still tried, money is not a necessity.

Quote from: egofree
but also often you are starting too much tasks at the same time without really finishing them.
This is what I have the most problem with, and why I wanted to put the former into perspective. I don't care and nobody else does how much I've done, though I appreciate your understanding. The main reason is because I generally think I can manage to finish every single thing in ENIGMA, which is just simply not true, I'm a pretty quick and dedicated developer, but the work is too insurmountable. Generally I also tried to lay the framework for other developers to come in and finish something, if I didn't have the time to fully complete something I at least put the framework in place for it to be completed, and in some cases Sorlok and TheExDeus have finished my incomplete work.

This is generally cited as a problem with open source projects.

Quote from: Darkstar2
Well some people have the wrong idea and come to ENIGMA thinking it is a carbon copy of GM but free when it isn't, not exactly, because it is not 100% compatible.  and most people don't bother reading, so they won't read the fine print so to speak :D
This is what I've consistently identified as the problem, it has no real objective. Its goal is simply to be an augmentation of GM, but what it should do is undefined and has consistently been left up to the users to decide.

Quote from: Darkstar2
abandon the dog shite they left behind, and nobody left to wipe up the mess, it keeps piling up and eventually not much people have time or skill to fix it.
The only real place we've had that problem is in LGM and specifically with the EGM format. In fact, I hate the whole ENIGMA plugin. Josh has made sure not to let this happen as badly with the compiler, specifically he defragmented write_object_data.cpp when it got too verbose and complex.

Quote from: Darkstar2
Unless they are the nerdy type who know 16 languages and can code C++ with their eyes closed - they do exist, but you are not LIKELY to find them on the GMC of all places. :D
I agree with this and I have nothing against children or professional developers, the fact is there is no reason you can't have the best of both worlds. But D&D is not the way to achieve that, and as I've said countless times I find the whole thing to be extremely counter-intuitive and it never helped me learn anything, I never figured out how to make games with D&D in GM they were just broken messes, like all D&D games, it's a failed concept.

I also specifically hate the event system and think the objects should just be scripts. There's no reason you can't still provide an event tree for quickly adding events to the object like you can do in Visual Studio's form designer. In fact this would be a great alternative to GM, just click to add an event to your script object like you do in Visual Studio, and then present a tree of all the methods and the structure of the script like Eclipse. It's much easier to just cut copy and paste text to reorder and move events than what GM does. The following screenshot should clarify, the event tree would automatically add the event code to your script for you like in Visual Studio, and below the event tree could be a separate tab with a docking interface that outlines all the methods and events of the class. The interface would still be graphical and just as easy for novices and advanced users alike to work with, the same could be done with drag and drop actions, they could just cut copy and paste the actual code for you. GM's whole interface is extremely counter-intuitive, and do you know why? Because it is over 15 years old, a lot of research has gone into interface design since then.



I have also specifically requested from Dreamland that the event and instance system be rewritten in a way that makes the above more graceful to accomplish for people who for instance would like to use ENIGMA's engine as an SDK and write their own event/instance systems.

The point is, I don't know what to tell you guys. All I can say is that I am available to help once in a blue moon if somebody needs it, I don't care much for debating I'm a pragmatist. But writing this post has already wasted about an hour of my time that I do not have.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 03:46:44 PM by Robert B Colton » Logged
I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

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