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Author Topic: Restructuring the Community  (Read 9605 times)
Offline (Unknown gender) onpon
Reply #15 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 03:57:40 PM

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I just have to respectfully disagree to that, for one because I am gay and two because that misnomer is entirely harmless.

"Harmless" and "mature" are two distinct things.
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Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #16 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 04:06:02 PM

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I have already made my opinion known on this for quite some time. I already mentioned several times how immature language and useless GM bashing reflects badly on ENIGMA. At the same time I also mentioned, that I really don't care. And I guess it's a view Josh shares with me, as he hasn't cared much either. I don't really care because this project has never been a "product" for me. It's a hobby. I would post here, and make ENIGMA, even if I was the only person on earth using it. At the same time I respect GM as the product that inspired me into programming, as well the creation of ENIGMA. It should be respected because of that even if I don't agree with some specific things they are doing.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #17 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 05:32:31 PM
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I respected GM for quite a long time, as a paying customer since its early beginnings.  Where I have a problem is the direction said company has taken and how they went about it, and I'm sure many people who has started using GM since the early days will understand and attest to that.  I think paying customers have earned their right to bash, when warranted, especially when many of those bashing customers made constructive suggestions, none of which developers give a damn about or listen, proof is in the pudding mate, countless times they have responded rudely to people making said suggestions who were mostly answered with "make your own" or "wait for extensions" or "that's the way it is and we won't change it" rubbish.  + the attitude of REMOVING something instead of fixing it........and the whole story.

I think constructive criticism that is warranted and genuine is not a bad thing.  You can't get a community where everyone agrees and sends flowers and praises everything.  There are ways to do so.  Most people who have bashed GM have stated WHY, and were genuine, as opposed to simply random, baseless bashing.  As a long supporter of GM and paying  customer, I don't agree at all in the direction YYG is taking and the methods they use in how certain things are done....Robert has exposed many of this as well, and others have.

This is what sets apart GameMaker from ENIGMA, even though ENIGMA was insipired from GM, ENIGMA's developers actually listen to constructive criticism and bloody do something about it, for the better, instead of just brushing people off and saying "do your own".  You can have a discussion and give your feedback.  Certain features found in the market place are BASIC functions that were available in previous GM versions and should have bloody remained, as they are basic functions in other products costing fractions less......But now they have managed to get people to do their dirty work, and take 70% cut ! There is a difference and line one should not cross when it comes to bashing, it should never cross the line into slandering, defamatory and personal attacks to a person's character however.  I agree with ego.....moderation is good but it can be abused too.  I agree with him that there are places where very skilled contributors were banned for very innocent things, even when posted in off topic forums.....this is NOT uncommon.  What starts as moderation can quickly turn in to trigger happy, power fest and outright  censoring.  The last thing this place wants is to become another GMC community. :D


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Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #18 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 02:54:06 PM

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But bashing GM in these forums is the same as bashing Mississippi gun laws in a Swedish kitchen decoration forum. All it does is gives bad rep to ENIGMA. We do listen to criticism, but YYG won't listen to criticism on ENIGMA's forums - if they would listen at all. So there is no reason to post stuff like that here.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #19 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 03:11:50 PM
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But bashing GM in these forums is the same as bashing Mississippi gun laws in a Swedish kitchen decoration forum. All it does is gives bad rep to ENIGMA. We do listen to criticism, but YYG won't listen to criticism on ENIGMA's forums - if they would listen at all. So there is no reason to post stuff like that here.

Good point about the gun laws lol, but in this case ENIGMA stems from GM, it is a project that was started NOT because GM was an amazing product that dazzled - and note the GM in ENIGMA, don't you think it's normal people would make comparisons and say that certain things are better done in ENIGMA than GM especially when they are factual.  So now we are talking about RULES.....so then what this forum needs is rules which are official and written, on what people CAN and CANNOT discuss... IN my opinion, only ENIGMA related stuff should be discussed in the official forums, and any else in general, and the heated debates and certain delicate matters in closed member areas, that's just my opinion.  It's quite hard to find any given forum without some bashing of something at one point or another, it's how you do it and how you argument that makes you appear well informed or just a trouble maker / one line troll........I think it's not in what you say, but how you say it.
But no matter what people will always judge, good or bad, it seems the BAD takes priority and that is what people judge first...Welcome to planet earth, :P
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Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #20 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 06:06:13 PM
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But bashing GM in these forums is the same as bashing Mississippi gun laws in a Swedish kitchen decoration forum. All it does is gives bad rep to ENIGMA. We do listen to criticism, but YYG won't listen to criticism on ENIGMA's forums - if they would listen at all. So there is no reason to post stuff like that here.

I agree with this fully. I was never a fan of this aspect of the forum (and how relaxed trolling is (was?) on here in general).

This forum always came across as a bunch of teenagers living in the ghetto saying how crap it must be for the King and Queen living in their palace. King and Queen don't care, they are looking down on the ghetto having a good chuckle at the teenager's expense.

I always stongly pushed for ENIGMA to become ENIGMA and not a GM:S wanna be. ENIGMA will always be in the shadow of GM:S (while that is what it is trying to be - the backbone and funding isn't there). ENIGMA needs to forget about YYG and GM:S and become ENIGMA.

ENIGMA should keep its head held high and not even have any mention of YYG or GM:S on the forum - at all.

Think 'GM:S doesn't exist'.
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Offline (Male) DaSpirit
Reply #21 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 06:24:44 PM

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I always stongly pushed for ENIGMA to become ENIGMA and not a GM:S wanna be. ENIGMA will always be in the shadow of GM:S (while that is what it is trying to be - the backbone and funding isn't there). ENIGMA needs to forget about YYG and GM:S and become ENIGMA.

ENIGMA should keep its head held high and not even have any mention of YYG or GM:S on the forum - at all.

Think 'GM:S doesn't exist'.
I have been telling this to JoshDreamland for a long time. He always responds by telling me that when he finishes his new compiler for ENIGMA, that new functionalities will be possible, but that he still wants compatibility. He's right in saying that GM compatibility is ENIGMA's selling point, but GM compatibility also weights it down. It doesn't matter if we have extensions, if our language is weak. In my opinion, we should get a more OOP language.

YYG has always been doing some silly stuff with GM:Studio. I think ENIGMA can and will branch off eventually. The issue is that we need more contributors and/or time, as well as better communication (if we do branch off, we would need a really detailed specification first). An LGM replacement is also required, because LGM plugins aren't that flexible, and Java itself is just bloated.

Also, it's nice to see you around here. You always seemed like a cool fellow at the GMC.
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Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #22 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 07:20:19 PM

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Now lonewolff you are on the page that I can agree with, I have advocated the same for a while as well. But my issue is that people do find the GM compatibility a huge positive in the program, we have basically the whole program duplicated and to redo things now and take things in a new direction would be the end to that. Like I've said before I would first increase consistency in a lot of functions, such as color values. So the focus for me and Josh has always been to complete aspects of things which do not directly address/interfer breaking compatibility.
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I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #23 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 07:26:49 PM
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Now lonewolff you are on the page that I can agree with, I have advocated the same for a while as well. But my issue is that people do find the GM compatibility a huge positive in the program, we have basically the whole program duplicated and to redo things now and take things in a new direction would be the end to that. Like I've said before I would first increase consistency in a lot of functions, such as color values. So the focus for me and Josh has always been to complete aspects of things which do not directly address/interfer breaking compatibility.

We always have been on the same page, if you remember back (to the deleted conversations - LOL my bad :) ) .

Yeah, GM compatibility is a positive (but is isn't the be all and end all). People get along fine using Construct, Unity, Unreal Engine, etc... And they are all their own beast. No reason my ENIGMA can't be it's own beast.

Some things can allready be done in ENIGMA that can't be achived with 'out of the box' GM:S and that is a great step in the right direction.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #24 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 08:04:33 PM
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ENIGMA should keep its head held high

Just to specify, the actual head between the shoulders and for good reasons :D Carry on ! :P

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and not even have any mention of YYG or GM:S on the forum - at all.

Think 'GM:S doesn't exist'.

That's very difficult mate, considering ENIGMA is an augmentation of the very product - GAME MAKER......So as long as there is a tie and discussion about how GMS does this and what we should do it's very hard to completely forget and discard conversations about GMS......I see nothing wrong with it, providing it stays civil, and no attacking an individual but only ideas and facts....We are not in a communist state :D :D :D
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Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #25 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 08:22:02 PM
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ENIGMA should keep its head held high

Just to specify, the actual head between the shoulders and for good reasons :D Carry on ! :P

Quote
and not even have any mention of YYG or GM:S on the forum - at all.

Think 'GM:S doesn't exist'.

That's very difficult mate, considering ENIGMA is an augmentation of the very product - GAME MAKER......So as long as there is a tie and discussion about how GMS does this and what we should do it's very hard to completely forget and discard conversations about GMS......I see nothing wrong with it, providing it stays civil, and no attacking an individual but only ideas and facts....We are not in a communist state :D :D :D

True. As long as it is kept civil and accurate.

The amount of mis-information I see about things that are bandied about around here is huge. Things ranging from 'yeah maybe at a stretch' to complete falsehoods.
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Offline (Male) Rusky
Reply #26 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 08:46:14 PM

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* Rusky braces for the 10-page Darkstar2 post "refuting" that this forum is full of misinformation
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Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #27 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 09:10:48 PM
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* Rusky braces for the 10-page Darkstar2 post "refuting" that this forum is full of misinformation

Bring it - LOL :)

I'll then counter that with a 20 page post containing the facts with citations ;)

Darkstar2 is one of the guilty one's too, hehe! But, this isn't a member bashing post.

We have all gotta just dig a bit deeper before making crap up  (Y)

« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 09:12:31 PM by lonewolff » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #28 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 09:29:11 PM
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I had a nice 25 page reply but then I asked myself.......

...... do I even care about what a person with a "resident troll badge" has to say ? lol.

For starters Rusky why don't you set the example before talking about others, you are the LAST person here who should even have an OPINION on this matter.
Seems every topic you are part of turns to crap :D


We all make mistakes in our assumptions, we are all human and that's why people who know better correct others, in a civil and polite way without being arrogant arseholes, and sorry to say but certain people here which I won't name have not always been civil and kind or good examples, and yes you are amongst them too in fact top position there matey, based on those who are still active members :D

EVERYONE can be considered guilty of the bashing or sometimes going over the top,
but as far as I'M bloody concerned as far as my take on GM, I am a PAID customer, long loyal customer and my rants and bashes are warranted and genuine. As far as other "mis-informations" well feel free to correct them, that's what a community is for :D  When I came here I knew far less about certain things than I do now, mainly C++, so yeah I've been wrong about certain things and I asked questions about certain terms and what not and got corrected......There is a difference between being genuinely interested and purposely spreading lies and shit which I don't do and sorry but I will strongly defend this.

The problem here is NOT the bashing or
misinformation it's the sometimes rude attitude and very uncivil, hostile tension between developers, members, etc.  That is a major turn-off......Not the occasional cussing..... But that was past, I just finished saying to lonewolff that this place is much more peaceful and tame.......was I wrong ? did I speak too soon ? :D

If you want more pages let me know - it's FREE on weekdays !
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 10:04:45 PM by Darkstar2 » Logged
Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #29 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 09:40:38 PM

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How about we just ban everyone and ban ourselves. Because otherwise nothing will change. :p
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