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Author Topic: Restructuring the Community  (Read 8940 times)
Offline (Male) DaSpirit
Posted on: September 24, 2014, 11:40:00 AM

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Today, in the ENIGMA IRC channel:
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<ENIGMA User> just found out about enigma and i'm pretty turned off by the immature community. don't think i want to stay
* ENIGMA User has left ("Leaving")

This is not the first time that the ENIGMA community has been viewed as immature. The problem is that this community is very lax; anything is allowed here. But too much freedom is problematic - it leads to anarchy. And while I do believe that anarchy is not always pure chaos, it is unattractive to others.

So I am proposing that we should be stricter on what we allow on the forums and what we do not. I'm not saying to remove "hate topics" or the like, just to control them better. If the discussion goes out of hand or if the discussion was never just anyway, we should lock the topics right away.

This is one reason why our community is small, and also part of the reason why this project is discredited. If people think that the community is immature, what does that say about the state of the project?

Discuss. Yay/nay?
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Offline (Unknown gender) onpon
Reply #1 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 12:08:22 PM

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If people view the community as immature, I imagine it's for the same reason that I do: use of racist and homophobic slurs, and other crude or offensive language. Like "GayMaka: Stupido". I was honestly surprised that Robert B Colton is apparently a young adult and not a pre-teen.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #2 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 12:15:11 PM
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Expect something like that no matter what, on any community.  You have your die-hard fanboys, competition and others. To me this is a comment of a hardcore GM fanboy who is attached to the product. Who has made quick judgement on the surface and only decided to tune in to the negative aspect.

A forum is by all means not representative of a product necessarily.  I am a user of many products and yet I don't participate in their forums, but their forums is quite a mess and full of hate, etc......yet the product is good.  So this could apply. I think ENIGMA has a specific market, it's a work in progress, and might turn off many people, especially those who are not willing to work around things, learn about code, etc.

Some RANDOM person showing up and bashing you, you got to then turn around and ask them if they actually used the product and how can it be made better....
You got to ask them to evaluate the number of updates and fixes and the fact developers actually discuss and listen to their users vs. another company they so defend.....

On the topic of forums, yes I do believe every forum should have rules to some extent.  I also believe a forum should have dedicated sections to talk about general or other stuff, like any forum, and perhaps a sub forum not visible to new users or unregistered viewers, available to developers or long time users/posters, etc.
I don't believe in censorship, just common sense. 

As far as hate - that is censorship territory, but again ti depends on the context..... You have 2 types of people,

1) Those who make personal attacks, hate others, insults, discredit and only spend their time degrading people, particularly newbies,etc... Sounds familiar ? Only  recently some people were called out by name on the GMC.......

2) Those who constantly complain and hate yet offer no arguments.  Mostly one liners and such...... IN a forum you need a blend of good and bad, but to some extent the bad can be helpful - if hate about something is backed up with arguments as to WHY a user hates something and provide something reasonable and factual.

3) Sub forums - dedicated forums on the product itself and only that and other sub forums on general discussion...... Nobody should be turned off if visiting the right forums........they should not visit non product related forums otherwise, or they would have no right to "complain" about a community and should go elsewhere.
So yes the PRODUCT itself and its forums related to such, should be attractive, professional and respectful. Obviously you are not going to post about your exploits and encounters inside a programming forum......

Should forums have rules ? YES.  It's good for its owners and users.
Should forums be moderated ? YES. (Note, there is a difference between moderation and censorship).
Should some forum areas be invisible to non members or new members ? YES ! YES! YES!  (meaning non product related areas).

And finally, I think most forums should add this disclaimer, I know I would on mine.
"The comments posted on this forum are those of their respective authors and do not necessarily represent the views of ENIGMA developers".

As to onpon:  Are you offended by the term "GayMaka Stupido" because you don't like these terms used OR you are a fan of GameMaker Studio ?" The first time I ever heard this was years ago, from an actual GM user, employing those terms.... The same way some people on the other side used "creative" terms to describe ENIGMA :D

Personally I don't judge a product by its forum.  When I joined the forum it was in the middle of flame wars between developers and some users.....But I saw potential in the product.  I guess I can see why some skeptics or die hard fans of GM would think the way they do.... One would really need solid intentions for something new to make the move, but most people don't probably realise that the product is so similar.......:P (by looks)

This is where closed areas would benefit.  Also I agree with you to SOME extent, I think racism, slurs, homophobia and crude language should be left off the source code...... It is not a requirement to be a forum member to use ENIGMA.....So at least keeping the source code free of such AND the documentation / site itself.
Fact is Robert and company have done more to an open source project recently than YYG has done in an extended period of time fixing stuff, breaking stuff, changing their mind etc.....  I guess some people have ways of expressing themselves

« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 12:24:11 PM by Darkstar2 » Logged
Offline (Male) DaSpirit
Reply #3 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 01:08:58 PM

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Really nice post, I agree with you, Darkstar2.

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Those who constantly complain and hate yet offer no arguments.  Mostly one liners and such...... IN a forum you need a blend of good and bad, but to some extent the bad can be helpful - if hate about something is backed up with arguments as to WHY a user hates something and provide something reasonable and factual.
One liners generally do not describe an opinion (unless of course, that line is really big), and those are types of topics we should be locking and avoiding in the first place.

Also, sure, the ENIGMA may be good too. But it is unorganized. Heck, it doesn't even have proper version numbers. We'll never know when we hit 1.0, and maybe we never will. This community and the product both reflect that same unprofessional vibe.

We have a potentially very peaceful community. While friends do curse at each other, for fun, outsiders can and will be insulted. We cannot choose who comes here, but we should set examples for any new users or new contributors.

Still, right now, maybe we need more, or better, moderators to moderate the existing moderators. I know that Josh does not want more moderators, but we need more control here. We need somebody who says "hey, chill" and warns others whenever something potentially insulting is said, because some of our current members don't notice this behavior.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #4 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 01:44:25 PM
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One liners generally do not describe an opinion (unless of course, that line is really big), and those are types of topics we should be locking and avoiding in the first place.

But do you see much of that here ?  Meaning inside the actual product sub forums and not the general or other ?  An occasional humour or funny comment is good at times, people lead stressful lives as it is, nothing wrong with some humour, especially when the people involved understand the context.  This is another big issue where people might be turned off.......CONTEXT.  For people who have known each other for a long time, both outside and on the forums might understand the context of a certain term or post, whilst the person joining the community might  feel offended or otherwise.  Which is why I guess to keep it fair and square, the only way in my opinion is keeping the official forums about the product, professional and the other forums non related relaxed or have a section for debates and other, closed or open, at least people can't use an excuse to say they were turned away, when they could have avoided those sub forums.

By one liner in my comment, I do not mean ALL one liners. As there is room for properly using one liners and there is the misuse of one liners when it is non constructive, offensive, trolling ,etc.

Examples:

"Your product sucks major bollox"

"Your product is shite!"

"you guys sux!"

"Your product is garbage"

etc.  You get the drift.  These type of people are bad for any community.  You don't have to even be a coder, just argument why you hate something and give your opinion as to what could make it better.  Luckily for the most part I find this community to be more friendlier and helpful than many other communities I've seen.........I guess some people decide only to judge an entire community based on cherry picking the wrong posts......:P

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Also, sure, the ENIGMA may be good too. But it is unorganized. Heck, it doesn't even have proper version numbers. We'll never know when we hit 1.0, and maybe we never will. This community and the product both reflect that same unprofessional vibe.

Spot on - I cannot agree more with this and had mentioned this before.  Even in LGM, with all the changes made, it was stuck to 1.8.5, then got finally promoted to 1.8.6....... I think it deserves far more than a .001 increment :D  I guess to some ENIGMA is work in progress, and might always be.......but in all fairness I think the same of "other" products too :D

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We have a potentially very peaceful community. While friends do curse at each other, for fun, outsiders can and will be insulted. We cannot choose who comes

Spot on again, your views align exactly with what I mentioned above, and I had not read your comment yet... CONTEXT..... People who know each other for a while vs. an outsider who will interpret it different.  Obviously you are not going to greet a stranger on the street with "Hey there MFka.....:P" or call some random person a dumb B* :D  So yeah, there is the common stereotype that this type of behaviour is only for pre-teens, kids, teens ,etc...... LOL  I beg to differ, there are probably as much adults if not more.  I have actually witnessed this quite a lot........Radio personalities, TV personalities, celebrities, judges, law enforcement.......TEACHERS (yes even at the University level) some of the stuff I witnessed and heard - you'd think some 12 year olds are more mature.......but anyhow that's for another topic.  On the good side, some of these people can be really nice and helpful towards others, they may act this way amongst their peers, friends, etc.

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here, but we should set examples for any new users or new contributors.

True, but at the same time we should not be robots. A bit of fun, humour and what not....is good !  Perhaps certain things belong in their own sub forums, I agree.
I have seen many highly disturbing terms or topics here that would not only turn away people but cause people to report the site (very serious stuff) but mostly they are posted outside the official forums......Which is why it is important to keep these areas restricted and not open to non registered or new members.

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Still, right now, maybe we need more, or better, moderators to moderate the existing moderators. I know that Josh does not want more moderators, but we need more control here.

You want moderators on a forum with 4 active posters, most by developers ? :D
Fact is the forum is not the whole deal.
People might be turned off because they get scared of ENIGMA, having the impression that it is not a FINISHED product (well er. it isn't :D) or being scared by the license or scared by open source, or scared by the bugs or what not, who knows.......I guess with the mobility CRAZE, it seems unlikely ENIGMA will attract many people.  The day ENIGMA will be complete + multi platform export etc, that might change.......though I think what ENIGMA needs is a complete detachment from the umbilical cord - it should have been cut off ages ago, and for the sake of compatibility might be paying the price now.  One thing about ENIGMA community, there is more freedom of people to express themselves and not being censored or bashed by moderators, admins, or banned because you disagree.......OR for users to insult newbies like some people called out on the GMC recently by users here......:)

So one has to look at both sides of the coin.

To what extent is moderation and censorship needed ? and where?
Is it more logical to moderate the official areas and keep other sub forums off limits,
or other methods?

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We need somebody who says "hey, chill" and warns others whenever something potentially insulting is said, because some of our current members don't notice this behavior.

Feuds between users.......flaming, etc.
Perhaps there should be a sub forum, (closed area / restricted) for certain type of heated debates that has potential to turn sour.  Things can go south quickly - Some people might choose the easy way out of just avoiding stuff, but why ? I am a strong believer of freedom of expression, but also believe in sub sections and moderation (NOT censorship).
Because too much censorship or excessive moderation might have the opposite effect......actual helpful contributors or users being pushed away.  Some people, as in real life, can appear mean on the outside core and "bad ass!" :D but are skilled and can be really helpful and beneficial.  Welcome to life :D

Big debates, heated topics, controversial topics people are usually afraid to discuss, I'm all for it......but they should definitely be restricted areas OUTSIDE the official forums....and a good disclaimer should be added to a forum.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Aegar
Reply #5 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 01:54:00 PM

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I'm the one who DaSpirit mentioned in the OP (thanks for leaving out my name, I appreciate it) and I'm happy to see that it at least sparked a discussion about community behavior.

For context, I do not and have not used GameMaker. I'm just a hobby gamedev who's studying various game engines but I do hope to push commercial products somewhere down the line. (Related note, I do hope that ENIGMA gets relicensed soon.)

I made that comment about "immaturity" after reading the forums for a few hours. There's a distinct air of unprofessionalism all over the place and a lot of it comes from one or two main contributors to the project. Granted, ENIGMA isn't a commercial product so professionalism may not be a top concern, but I think there's a difference between "not being professional" and "being unprofessional" and I think ENIGMA leans toward the latter.

Even if ENIGMA is mainly meant to drive casual/hobby projects, it should still present itself in the best light. Unprofessional behavior on the part of the contributors or the community WILL reflect poorly on the actual software. Perception is everything. I think ENIGMA has potential but my enjoyment of it is already tainted because of stuff like this.

As of now, I still don't know if I actually want to keep up with ENIGMA and that's solely based on what I've seen on the forums. That may be irrational but it is what it is. I'm sure plenty of others have felt this way too.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #6 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 02:18:40 PM
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For context, I do not and have not used GameMaker. I'm just a hobby gamedev who's studying various game engines

That's great.  In terms of engines, other than what you noticed on forums, did you notice anything particular about ENIGMA ?  I'm asking this because some people might judge based on what they read on forums and not the product itself.  When I joined here I too read flaming, bashing and developers that called each other names and never agreed....but I looked further, deeper, to me what counts is the product and its potential, I KNEW coming into this that it was not a finished product and that it had its flaws (many), yet it's thanks to this community and ENIGMA that I brushed my C++ skills (maybe not at the level I can develop for ENIGMA) but enough to make really neat stuff for my projects and minimal contribution to the product itself.  So if one learns to look past this layer they will find lot of helpful stuff.  This is not a commercial product or a finished product.  What you describe is something present in many communities, particularly open source, free, etc....and even commercial too......You never used game maker, so you were not aware of the "community" they had way back then, which was not exactly as friendly towards new comers.

As far as hoping that ENIGMA gets a final license, etc, don't hold your breath on that, in my opinion I don't think anything significant will be changed.  If I was a lawyer, I'd offer my services FREE to resolve this once and for all......:D

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I made that comment about "immaturity" after reading the forums for a few hours.

I did the same when I joined and had the same reaction - and only reason why I registered and started posting was because of the helpful stuff I also read, as there were so many, and felt I could learn....which I did.  It all comes down to every person's tolerance or sensitivity and context I guess.  But indeed, perhaps to some people certain things might be inappropriate .....

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There's a distinct air of unprofessionalism all over the place and a lot of it comes from one or two main contributors to the project. Granted, ENIGMA isn't a commercial product so professionalism may not be a top concern, but I think

Well if they are main contributors, it means they are helping make ENIGMA better, sorting bugs, improving the product, probably in a faster time span and BETTER than another company, but you have not used game maker so I can understand your point of view as you might not be aware of previous discussions and past history and take certain context differently. Whatever you read here that came across as unprofessional or immature, i'm sure if you get to know the people involved you will see they are very skilled, know their stuff, helpful and very kind.

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contributors or the community WILL reflect poorly on the actual software. Perception is everything. I think ENIGMA has potential but my enjoyment of it is already tainted because of stuff like this.

It's a shame because in regards to gamemaker and ENIGMA you couldn't have an easier to learn and use engine and fast development times.  But you said it best, perception is everything.  No matter what you will never be able to please your entire user base.  No matter what there will always be negative perception of something, no matter how good it is.  That goes for games, movies, forums, software, relationships, people, you name it.

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As of now, I still don't know if I actually want to keep up with ENIGMA and that's solely based on what I've seen on the forums. That may be irrational but it is what it is. I'm sure plenty of others have felt this way too.

Can't argue there, you are right, there are probably many who think that.  Luckily there are some who look deeper.  But I guess there are many ways to keep things in check and many suggestions were given already.   I don't believe in censorship, but I agree that the OFFICIAL forums related to the product and development should be professional at all times.
user fights, developer feuds, developers flaming one another, etc should be kept in a restricted area, outside official areas, because that might turn people away no doubt.
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Offline (Male) DaSpirit
Reply #7 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 02:25:06 PM

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@Darkstar2: Yes, definitely, context is a large part. You made a nice point about keeping in humor. I still think that we need some sort of additional control over what users says, but definitely not too much.

@Aegar: You weren't the first, but you also are not the last. I thank you, for your opinion.


So, this is what I think should be changed to improve our future community and our community now:
  • The website: Josh (the project leader) has had a new website design for a while (a few years actually) that would make ENIGMA look like the product it is. I asked him about this before, and he said that he hesitates putting it up because ENIGMA is indeed a WIP product, and he didn't want it to seem as if it was finished. The current home page is horrible. It's the first thing you see, and already, the product seems unprofessional.
  • ENIGMA version numbers. The home page can display the current version, and version updates. It would also give us a better idea on what needs to be done before a 1.0.
  • The moderation: Those topics about hating GMC members have got to go. While the intention of those topics is to make those members look bad, it is making ENIGMA's community look bad.
  • The current forums: I think that the forum stuture should change slightly. I think some of them are ambiguously named, such as "Issues Help Desk". A "Help Desk" does not seem like it's community help, but rather, it's help from the company making the product. YoYo Games has a Help Desk, and it's more about licensing and technical issues, rather than GML help. Other subtopics, we can combine, such as the Audio and Sprite subforums. We need to make it more for users than developers, in my opinion.
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Offline (Unknown gender) egofree
Reply #8 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 02:59:53 PM
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From my point of view, the most important is the support from the main contributors on this forum. They give a lot of their time to help people, and we should be very grateful for this. We should not forget that it's a free project. This means it's just a bunch of people who are working in their free time to make this project happen. As money rules the world, i have a lot of respect for people who spent thousands of hours just for the fun of it ! (Y)
I was feeling uneasy when developers were fighting each other, but it's a thing of the past, and the important is that the project can move on.  Concerning rude words, i don't think it's really a problem. I don't see people spending their time insulting each other, so we should not be too picky. But in a world where the politically correct rules, sometimes people are shocked very easily !  ;)
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Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #9 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 03:09:09 PM

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I actually want to say that DaSpirit is right and I have come around to somewhat agree. I have been less and less wild in my postings and a lot more focused on being constructive, including topics not getting out of hand. I take a different approach though, I do not want to see this community lose its freedom and I do not want to see anarchy and I do not want to pick favorites like the GMC administrators do (aristocracy), I like everyone here and my objective is that everybody gets along, criticism is always welcome.

Quote from: onpon
I imagine it's for the same reason that I do: use of racist and homophobic slurs, and other crude or offensive language. Like "GayMaka: Stupido". I was honestly surprised that Robert B Colton is apparently a young adult and not a pre-teen.
I just have to respectfully disagree to that, for one because I am gay and two because that misnomer is entirely harmless.

Quote from: DaSpirit
The website: Josh (the project leader) has had a new website design for a while (a few years actually) that would make ENIGMA look like the product it is. I asked him about this before, and he said that he hesitates putting it up because ENIGMA is indeed a WIP product, and he didn't want it to seem as if it was finished. The current home page is horrible. It's the first thing you see, and already, the product seems unprofessional.
I agree with this as well, we could at least remove hypnotoad and the derogatory comments from the footer as well as update the copyright after 2 years for god sakes. Not only does it look unprofessional, it looks dead!

Quote from: egofree
They give a lot of their time to help people, and we should be very grateful for this.
This is also something I agree with that sometimes I don't think people grasp a lot, I give up a considerable amount of my time to assist people, generally for my own enjoyment but I also like helping people and so do a lot of our contributors and community members.

All things herein considered I do not agree with bullshit topics like this as I just find it a huge waste of everyone's time and breathe, if you want to see the community to improve make a concerted and earnest effort to improve the conditions as well as to resolve disputes among members, democracy stops working when people stop believing in it.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 03:15:03 PM by Robert B Colton » Logged
I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #10 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 03:20:51 PM
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@Darkstar2: Yes, definitely, context is a large part. You made a nice point about keeping in humor. I still think that we need some sort of additional control over what users says, but definitely not too much.

He's not the first or last - true.  I've had people I know have the same reaction, but I respect what is said in PM to me, but been told by some people I encouraged or tried to bring in here that they were turned off mostly by the developers, some even saying lack of interest, etc. I won't name names, but to be honest I find these claims disturbing, because it might seem so on the outside, but the people referenced, have been nothing but hard working in trying to make the product better, there is a difference between not wanting to and not having time !  I don't necessarily agree with every reason, however until recently there was one user who was turned away because of flaming from devs, I think some people know who I am referring to, however, it was later found out other motives of that user which I won't get into - So one has to look at both sides.....I tend to weigh both good and bad, and instead of saying "why I SHOULDN'T bother here" I say "WHY should I bother" and honestly I don't regret it, and I can see many reasons to WANT to stick around, despite everything.
Also sometimes when there is debate, heat, and tension it is beyond you, you tend to sometimes lower yourself to the level and act the same way, been there, done that, when attacked......but so long as you quickly get back on path there is no problem in my opinion.   One could easily use judgement and differentiate the recurrent trouble makers only making trouble vs. those who are genuine contributors (by contributors I mean mostly in posting, not just with code).

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@Aegar: You weren't the first, but you also are not the last. I thank you, for your opinion.

One person which I won't name, who felt this way, who left (in a weird way from here) had the potential of being an amazing contributor and very useful to ENIGMA.  But on the flip side, said person did not want to stick around and had other motives.  So yeah, and yes it is no secret that ENIGMA has lost some developers who left / quit due to disagreements with other devs or the direction ENIGMA was taking......For starters things start at the root.....developers.  You can moderate your users and things that cross the line, but at the root it is important to have developers and a team that respect one another and their project......as I think that is the biggest factor that will show in your final product and how people perceive your site.

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So, this is what I think should be changed to improve our future community and our community now:
  • The website: Josh (the project leader) has had a new website design for a while (a few years actually) that would make ENIGMA look like the product it is. I asked him about this before, and he said that he hesitates putting it up because ENIGMA is indeed a WIP product, and he didn't want it to seem as if it was finished.
It's strange but I agree with Josh in a way, however, I also agree about a new site, but you can still have both worlds, mentioning that your product is work in progress.  I have mentioned this long ago, but there is so much outdated info on the site, and there could be better documentation / stand alone documentation like YYG even for a WIP.  I guess that is contributor driven as well, problem is lack of time of main developers. Time is the key issue.

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The current home page is horrible. It's the first thing you see, and already, the product seems unprofessional.[/li][/list]

lol.  I've seen far worse.  But I agree.  Though it depends on each individual, personally I judged based on the core, the product itself and its potential, I weighed in on what I could do in ENIGMA that I cannot in GM/GMS, a product I PAID MONEY for :p

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  • ENIGMA version numbers. The home page can display the current version, and version updates. It would also give us a better idea on what needs to be done before a 1.0.

lol, what you mean ENIGMA is not in version 1, is it alpha still ? :D
But yeah an updated page with recent changes, changes to come, remaining issues.  I agree, but again you also need developers with time on their hands or user contributors with enough time to take care of all that.

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  • The moderation: Those topics about hating GMC members have got to go. While the intention of those topics is to make those members look bad,
In many cases the comments made were spot on and accurate/factual, it is a known FACT that some GMC members have not been examples to follow, nor have they always been nice towards others that did not share their point of view.....and I won't mention names.....but the ones called out, were done so rightfully.  ...

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it is making ENIGMA's community look bad.[/li][/list]

you do have a point there, feuds between communities is counterproductive, even if what is said about other side is so true most of the time :D  I DO agree about it when it relates to someone/an individual, however about posts talking negative about another product, when properly argument with facts, I think is not a bad thing.

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  • The current forums: I think that the forum stuture should change slightly.
What's a "stuture" ? :D

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I think some of them are ambiguously named, such as "Issues Help Desk". A "Help Desk" does not seem like it's community help, but rather, it's help from the company making the product. YoYo Games has a Help Desk, and it's more about licensing and technical issues, rather than GML help. Other subtopics, we can combine, such as the Audio and Sprite subforums. We need to make it more for users than developers, in my opinion.[/li]
[/list]

100% agree on the forum structure and
revamp of the sub forums categories.
I'm even for a closed area for heated debates and controversial topics :P
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #11 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 03:27:18 PM
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From my point of view, the most important is the support from the main contributors on this forum. They give a lot of their time to help people, and we should be very grateful for this. We should not forget that it's a free project. This means it's just a bunch of people who are working in their free time to make this project happen. As money rules the world, i have a lot of respect for people who spent thousands of hours just for the fun of it ! (Y)
I was feeling uneasy when developers were fighting each other, but it's a thing of the past, and the important is that the project can move on.  Concerning rude words, i don't think it's really a problem. I don't see people spending their time insulting each other, so we should not be too picky. But in a world where the politically correct rules, sometimes people are shocked very easily !  ;)

Agreed with egopay, I mean we don't all crucify each other all the time.......Everything in moderation, there are more helpful and constructive posts than there are flames against one another. But the problem with this is even if these things are the past, new users who join who might go through the forum might read these old posts and be turned away, before they get a chance to read EVERYTHING.......What sticks to people is the negative first......that's how the mind works.

If I were to place a piece of turd in a plate next to a piece of chocolate cake next to it......you'd probably focus your intention on the plate of turd and react to it, more than say "mmmmm look at this amazing chocolate cake!"..... :D
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Offline (Unknown gender) Aegar
Reply #12 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 03:30:27 PM

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Revamping the website and reorganizing the forum structure would be great first steps, but like Darkstar said, it ultimately depends on the main leaders of the ENIGMA project. It's their responsibility to cultivate the kind of community they want. If they don't have the time or energy to work on community cultivation, moderation, etc. then they should find a capable volunteer who knows how to manage/build a community.

Or maybe this is already the kind of community they want... in which case, I don't see much hope for the future.
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #13 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 03:31:44 PM

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From my point of view, the most important is the support from the main contributors on this forum. They give a lot of their time to help people, and we should be very grateful for this. We should not forget that it's a free project. This means it's just a bunch of people who are working in their free time to make this project happen. As money rules the world, i have a lot of respect for people who spent thousands of hours just for the fun of it ! (Y)
I was feeling uneasy when developers were fighting each other, but it's a thing of the past, and the important is that the project can move on.  Concerning rude words, i don't think it's really a problem. I don't see people spending their time insulting each other, so we should not be too picky. But in a world where the politically correct rules, sometimes people are shocked very easily !  ;)

Agreed with egopay, I mean we don't all crucify each other all the time.......Everything in moderation, there are more helpful and constructive posts than there are flames against one another. But the problem with this is even if these things are the past, new users who join who might go through the forum might read these old posts and be turned away, before they get a chance to read EVERYTHING.......What sticks to people is the negative first......that's how the mind works.

If I were to place a piece of turd in a plate next to a piece of chocolate cake next to it......you'd probably focus your intention on the plate of turd and react to it, more than say "mmmmm look at this amazing chocolate cake!"..... :D

Agreed, so maybe we should moderate ourselves and a closed subforum where longstanding memebers can do/say anything but that is closed to newcomers, until they reach a certain number of posts or until they have been memebers for... what? a year?
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #14 Posted on: September 24, 2014, 03:37:33 PM

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Revamping the website and reorganizing the forum structure would be great first steps, but like Darkstar said, it ultimately depends on the main leaders of the ENIGMA project. It's their responsibility to cultivate the kind of community they want. If they don't have the time or energy to work on community cultivation, moderation, etc. then they should find a capable volunteer who knows how to manage/build a community.

Or maybe this is already the kind of community they want... in which case, I don't see much hope for the future.

Having been on DEBIAN forums, Ubuntu forums and having witnesed how good contributors got banned for really inocent stuff posted on the offtopiq forum I tend to see moderation with a little distrust, one of the things I like best about LGM/ENIGMA is it's community.

That said a revamping of the main site and the forums is not a bad idea but... I think Josh, Robert, Harri, Ism et all are too valuable to have them waste their time moderating a forum, and keeping a site to date, I like them better developing ENIGMA  :cool:
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 03:41:36 PM by edsquare » Logged
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