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Author Topic: Restructuring the Community  (Read 9097 times)
Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #45 Posted on: September 27, 2014, 08:06:23 PM
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This is a FOSS and we do it not because "we want to change the world" or some other stupid start-up slogan. We do it because we can and we personally want to.

Extensible Non-Interpreted Game Maker Augmentation - Sounds pretty slogany to me (and a bit gay FWIW) ;)


I just don't get the motivation of the project then, sorry. A fork it is then (Y)

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That said, the burger stand analogy further breaks down at what happens when the employee mouths off to customers. I can't fire Robert and hire a replacement. If I could find people who wanted to work for Robert's wage, I'd be out doing so. Since I can't, yes, this community functions as our only net. I'm not sure what it says that such a substantial fraction of our community are contributors; I see it as a positive. I won't speak for the other contributors further, but I'll point out that they're still around.

No way was I pointing the finger at Robert (or anyone in particular, for that matter). Just an every day style example or what I was trying to get at.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 08:12:54 PM by lonewolff » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #46 Posted on: September 27, 2014, 08:53:32 PM
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No way was I pointing the finger at Robert (or anyone in particular, for that matter). Just an every day style example or what I was trying to get at.

Exactly same situation as you, I was not pointing at nobody in particular and yet get lashed at ...  This happens a lot on forums lonewolff.

and I think more and more as this topic advances proves the OP's point further and why some restructuring and moderation might not be a bad thing.
Every community be it from a open sourced project, free project, hobby or whatever, should have some rules, for everybody's best interest.

When I joined here there was hostility,
flaming, 1 or 2 users insulting and flaming / breaking down every post people made, it was NOT attractive or welcoming in my opinion. 

but I decided to stay because I liked the program.  But I'm sure a lot of people would not.  I don't know why some people feel targeted, when it is clear we are talking in the general sense about things that are not tolerated normally on ANY forum/community.

If one adopts the anything goes anything can be said attitude, that only opens doors to situations like these and some observed in the past.

Nobody said anything about firing or banning anybody nobody was pointing a finger at Robert, or anybody. Lonewolff, I guess moderation or not, you have to be very careful voicing your opinions around here. (or anywhere) :D Some forums are obviously over moderated and ban people on ridiculous things (you just proved a good example there with the avatar thing :D)  does not mean this place has to be like that...

Friendly community ay ? lol !    But it is a learning experience because eventually you learn that you should avoid certain topics and stick to the official forums ....

You will always clash with people on a forum no matter what.

That said, anybody who joins here and points a finger at any user in particular, or notices the negativity, then do this........since it is easy to judge the bad first and good last.....do a search on that particular user, all his posts and see how much this user has contributed positive and constructive topics/posts vs. the nonconstructive ones.  Freedom goes a long way, but if it were up to me running this place, open source or not hobby or not, I would not allow racism, homophobia, personal attacks, excessive flaming, and ANYTHING that creates a hostile environment.

As to Robert it is clear that he has contributed more good to this project than anything else, and we all derail from time to time and get carried away, but what sets the difference is that some people can quickly go back on track, that separates the good user from the really bad user who is ALL about flaming, disturbing, attacking, like this place had before, and those users have not been active....it is THAT category of users that don't give a good image to a community, not the occasional side tracking, cussing, fooling around....... I think one should be able to make a distinction.

To me ANY topic would be accepted, anything goes, in their respective forums, but crossing the line into personal territory (threats against others, attacking their person, their family, character, spreading lies, etc.I would not tolerate that !) there is a difference between disagreeing with someone and attacking their person and being downright mean to everyone.  I guess different people have different opinions on how a community should be like........ :P

It doesn't fucking matter if a site is run by a corporation or hobbyists,they are the same human beings behind the screens...it all comes down to common sense in the end.  Wanting a friendly community, civil, professional, is that such a bad thing or is it perceived as anarchist, tyranny, etc.....So if ANYTHING goes then this means that the users attacked have a right to derail and defend themselves, it goes both ways.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 09:49:18 PM by Darkstar2 » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #47 Posted on: September 28, 2014, 06:25:29 AM

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The reason Robert is usually mentioned, is because he is the one that originally was very rash on the forums. Before him the whole thing was still silly, but it wasn't really offensive or aggressive. Robert for a while was like that, but in a year or so he has changed for the better. Now he is very helpful and even might call professional (as Josh pointed out in his post).
We also don't have any discussions among developers that might be perceived as infighting. We do discussions on features or bugs and so on, but it's only normal. Usually people wouldn't see that as that would happen in locked forums, but we do it publicly, as we encourage feedback.

So the ending questions is - What is exactly the thing that needs to be restructured? Just moderation for swear words? I guess we can do that, but as we personally aren't affected by that anymore (read: not 12yorld), then we don't almost notice that. Should we moderate for other company/product bashing? Like many here (usually not developers, the only dev who actually bashes them is Robert) bash YYG, GM:S, Microsoft, Apple etc. Prettier site? As most know there was one very pretty which never went live. Josh doesn't want this to seem like a product or even worse, a finished product, mostly because that will attract a lot of people asking why X doesn't work or why Y isn't added in ENIGMA in the next 48h hours. People, especially comming from GMC, don't know what FOSS is. They expect from us the same things (or more) they expect from a company like YYG. And that is not what we want.

But at the same time I want that new site online for MYSELF. So Josh, can we maybe put the site live, with just giant letter "THIS IS PRE-BETA!" or something?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 06:31:37 AM by TheExDeus » Logged
Offline (Male) Josh @ Dreamland
Reply #48 Posted on: September 28, 2014, 09:18:22 AM

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Maybe as a Christmas present. I do hate web development.
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Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #49 Posted on: September 28, 2014, 11:17:11 AM

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Can't we get another guy on it? a2h probably moved on, but maybe he is willing to help. It's his design/code after all. Maybe he could even do some improvements on the design.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #50 Posted on: September 28, 2014, 01:11:54 PM
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The reason Robert is usually mentioned, is because he is the one that originally was very rash on the forums.

There are some genuinely mean people and there are people who might appear or act mean on the outside, for some reason my gut instinct always told me that deep inside he's not mean and that he's helpful.  Usually one could easily distinguish those on a forum, as he was not like that in every single post.  When I joined I asked questions, and I remember a particular user flaming and insulting / degrading everyone he was 0% constructive 100% mean/flame, all the time, so it SHOULD be fairly easy to seed out the bad weed :D

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Before him the whole thing was still silly, but it wasn't really offensive or aggressive.

I remember Cheeseboy's posts and his nice comments on ENIGMA...... So ok maybe now things have changed for the better but imagine new people coming to see devs fight and talk trash about their own product and the work of others, how the hell do you think this resonates to new people, will they say "WOW this is an amazing project and community" or will they simply dismiss this as a kiddies playground.......that's the question.

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So the ending questions is - What is exactly the thing that needs to be restructured? Just moderation for swear words?

Fuck no :D You want examples ????

Here are some, it's all about common sense:

1) People who abuse and CONSTANTLY flame developers or other users, and are of absolute no use (such as the one person I witnessed when I joined), those usually are not contributors and trouble from the first day they join.....Those are the #1 candidates for moderation or ban.

2) Spewing garbage that could be a liability for the site and the project.  Inciting illegal acts (do I even need to give examples here !?!?!?) inciting violence, hate, slander, defamatory remarks on a dev/user, making personal attacks against a person, homophobia/racism, etc.   These kinds of discussions/remarks have absolutely no room in the official forums of the product, you can disagree with devs, other users, you can be harsh in your opinions, the line goes quite far, but there HAS to be a line that one cannot cross otherwise you just allow anything and things can quickly spiral out of control !  People who still think moderation is unnecessary have probably not much experience in forums or have not experienced situations that require it. 

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company/product bashing? Like many here (usually not developers, the only dev who actually bashes them is Robert) bash YYG, GM:S, Microsoft, Apple etc. Prettier site? As most know there was one very pretty which never went live. Josh doesn't want this to seem like a product or even worse, a

In a way YES.  BTW, there HAS been bashing from devs, inside source code and on forum, I recall clearly comments made against YYG and new nicknames given to YYG and GM/GMS, long before I started using some of them as I thought it was kinda funny at the time, (and still do).  But there is a line to draw, bashing a product when you argument your statements....

For example I bloody hate what YYG did with GM and the direction they took, their arrogance, their responses to people who asked them about features, removed features, etc, their removing of some functions, their telling people make your own, the way they handle certain things in GMS........so there is a difference on the intentions and context.  Then there is straight / random bashing without any arguments, just bashing for the kicks of it, probably by people who never even bothered using the product, have not paid for it, or are newbies who can't learn how to use it. I think it is fair to assume that most of us here who bashed the product have been long time users of GM and paid users......I've known about GM since its beginning, it actually started as an animation progam......I've started USING GM at version 5 and been a paying user all the way.  It's one thing to bash a product, but when is he line crossed ?
Making derogatory/degrading/racist/hurtful comments towards a person..... I think in all fairness most people here who bashed a product or company made solid and valid arguments.  Others might not agree with point of views though.  I could give MANY valid reasons why I stopped using GMS, but some kiddies attached to GMS might strongly disagree with me, because usually people who do, don't raise the bar and won't ever discover WHY......Catch the clown galore and boring ass games.  How many of the user base of GM make EXCEPTIONAL quality games???? The majority ? How many truly push the limits ?  I don't think it is the majority, and if I'm wrong correct me....
Common sense......you moderate when you see a situation can spiral out of control.  Of course some mods on forums ban or close topics very quickly, that is BAD moderation.  I've seen cases of people being banned or moderated for no valid reasons, whilst I've seen other people get away with a lot of shit, but they agree and suck up to mods and admins/company......(sounds familiar??? :D)
That is an example of BAD moderation and power abuse :D  But whether an open source / hobby project or closed source, EVERY forum should have rules. Otherwise no rules then anything goes........Then don't be surprised to see topics like these and any negative image you might get.....

As far as some people making comment that we should not talk about YYG or GM, that is difficult considering ENIGMA is tied to GM :D and the reason of ENIGMA was not because GM was exceptional and flawless....... :P

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finished product, mostly because that will attract a lot of people asking why X doesn't work or why Y isn't added in ENIGMA in the next 48h hours. People, especially comming from GMC, don't know what FOSS is. They expect from us the same things (or more) they expect from a company like YYG. And that is not what we want.

So use 127 point font, red big and bold and
make it clear that this is WORK IN PROGRESS.  I have seen VERY negative comments against ENIGMA by people outside this forum, by the product itself, some very harsh terms even used by GM devs themselves..... So why the bloody hell can't we call out what deserves to be called out ?

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But at the same time I want that new site online for MYSELF. So Josh, can we maybe put the site live, with just giant letter "THIS IS PRE-BETA!" or something?

lmao! then you scare people away thinking the product is absolutely bug ridden ,does not work and not worth using...... In my opinion work in progress is better.  One could make fully functional games in ENIGMA, in certain situations more work is needed......this project will not cater to those who are newbies , D&D only and don't have minimal coding knowledge or work around skills.....People might join thinking ENIGMA is 100% compatible with GM, I think there are certain things that should be very obvious and documented on the main site, in nice big bold letters.......127 points will do! :D Then people who complain have no excuse they didn't read :D unless they are totally blind !

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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #51 Posted on: September 29, 2014, 07:31:47 PM

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@ Darkstar2:

Since I did mistreat you in public I believe this needs to be said in public too:

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My apologies, maybe I did read too much between the lines, if so then please accept my most sincere aplogies and lets move on.

About our debate:

1.- I was baptized Roman Catholic too.

2.- I have no trauma about religion (luckily), but I do tend to come too strong on certain topics.

3.- I have no grudge against you, I just read too much on your comment.

I too believe that certain amount of moderation might be good for a community but it also can get out of hand really quickly and become a dictatorship (Been there sufered that).

Granted, next time I will remeber to ask you if I understood correctly your intentions.

Do we kiss and make up? or do we kiss and make out?  :D
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Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #52 Posted on: September 29, 2014, 07:51:32 PM
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Do we kiss and make up? or do we kiss and make out?  :D

I'd say 'make out'. It would show a propper commitment  (Y)
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #53 Posted on: September 29, 2014, 07:53:05 PM

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Do we kiss and make up? or do we kiss and make out?  :D

I'd say 'make out'. It would show a propper commitment  (Y)

Lol!
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #54 Posted on: September 29, 2014, 09:38:04 PM
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As explained in PM, it's all forgotten and water under the bridge.  I was just being general the same way lone and others were using general terms and not targeting anybody, some people might feel targeted due to stuff they said before, but in all honesty I never had you even in mind.

So no problem moving along, all forgotten.

no need for making up/out or what not (I'm straight !) :D
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 09:39:56 PM by Darkstar2 » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #55 Posted on: September 29, 2014, 09:38:56 PM
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Is that a tongue I see? ":P"
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #56 Posted on: September 29, 2014, 10:31:57 PM

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As explained in PM, it's all forgotten and water under the bridge.  I was just being general the same way lone and others were using general terms and not targeting anybody, some people might feel targeted due to stuff they said before, but in all honesty I never had you even in mind.

So no problem moving along, all forgotten.

no need for making up/out or what not (I'm straight !) :D

How do you know if you've never tried it? ;-)
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