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Author Topic: Restructuring the Community  (Read 9399 times)
Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #30 Posted on: September 25, 2014, 11:06:02 PM
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I must admit. There seems to be less tension in the forums here now. So something is going in the right direction anyway :)
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Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #31 Posted on: September 26, 2014, 03:36:00 AM

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I for one have lived happily with the thought "GM:S doesn't exist" for a long time. I haven't used GM for about 2-3 years now, and I exclusively use ENIGMA. I add functions which I need, without even checking if GM:S has something similar.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 03:37:31 AM by TheExDeus » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #32 Posted on: September 26, 2014, 04:00:19 AM
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LOL - speaking of keeping it civil. I am currently in an argument with Mark Alexander and Russel Kay as they are currently feeding bullshit to me on their 'public forum'.

Of course they are right in this case - NOT!
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Offline (Male) Josh @ Dreamland
Reply #33 Posted on: September 26, 2014, 08:43:06 PM

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Not everyone that contributes to a project will be a shining ray of professionalism, especially in the world of open-source. We're non-profit; we don't have a job or a duty. As with most FOSS projects, ENIGMA is a meritocracy. I'm not going to ignore the elephant in the room and acknowledge that you're all talking largely about Robert. Not everything Robert says is a weathered pearl of maturity and insight. This doesn't matter; his intentions for the project are good, and overall he is having a positive impact on the course of the project. Should I tell him to shape up or ship out? That would be a huge mistake. I don't care if 90% of people who come here on scouting missions see the community in an "unprofessional" state and leave—my job here is to maximize contributing members first, and other members second. In essence, I'd trade a ten—hell, a hundred Aegars for one Robert. I apologize if it seems excessively blunt, but the truth often is. The same goes for any of our other contributors.

Now, if you are calling to question my maturity and professionalism, I'd appreciate if you confronted me about it directly. I acknowledge a tendency toward anarchy. As it relates to contributors, see my above remarks. As it relates to other members, well, other members are people, and people will be people. It's a grab bag.

I could ban people who don't spell out the word "you," or who don't audit their speech for respectfulness and positivity, but I believe in freedom of speech first, and a comfortable environment for everyone who might come along, second. If you have a problem with the subject matter or tone of a thread, don't visit it. If it's saying something genuinely slanderous or distasteful, report it. I have had to edit out sexual content in the past, and we've had one user who was actually persistently, unjustifiably rude enough to constitute a ban. This user literally said nothing constructive or truthful in any of his posts; all he did was bash other members. I try to avoid bans in general, but I weigh rules by their merit. I haven't seen anyone make this forum a genuinely intolerable place to be.

Again, if you feel that someone is doing that, please exercise the report button. I'm not going to issue warns for "GayMaker: Stupido" any faster than I will for "Internet Exploder" or "Micro$oft," and the same goes for any names you can come up with for "ENIGMA." Actually, some people were already calling it "enigger" in the past, which was inspired by a particularly rude member who, fortunately for the rest of the community, only directed his rage at ENIGMA, me, and other contributors. The words reflect poorly on their speakers. It isn't my job nor my place to delete things others say where they are lawful in doing so. I prefer to point out my thoughts on their behavior.

If there is something in particular you would like me to address, feel free to let me know. As stated, I don't issue bans for opinions.
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Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #34 Posted on: September 26, 2014, 09:35:15 PM
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In defense of Robert, the only thing I see Robert doing wrong (even if you'd call it that), would be the colourful adjectives he might use occasionally.

I haven't really seen Robert do anything that would bring ENIGMA in to disreputre. I'd am pretty confident I speak for everyone when I say that Robert has gone well above and beyond anyone on this forum.

I have been away for 9 months, I come back and he is still chipping away like a Trojan.

As much as I am beginning to love TKG as well (the crazy bastard that he is :)), I just don't feel posts like this even belong on the forum http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=2217.msg22014#new

Just because something is 'non-profit' and completely controlled by volunteers, doesn't mean it can be professional.

Take a look at the Ogre3D community for example. It is structured, well thought out, and controlled. It is also one of the best communities on the planet (although it is severly dying off in activity these days).

Hell, I'd even put my hand up to be a moderator here to help clean up the place. If I do a crap job - kick me out. No harm done. ;)
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #35 Posted on: September 26, 2014, 10:46:20 PM
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In defense of Robert, the only thing I see Robert doing wrong (even if you'd call it that), would be the colourful adjectives he might use occasionally.

I see nothing wrong with emotions enhancing adjectives :D it's all in how it's used and how frequently. People should be judged by what they contribute, their knowledge, their behavior OVERALL - even a non code contributor, their conduct and interest, participation on the forum.  Actions speak louder than words.  Obviously here are certain words you want to avoid on a forum, such as derogatory / slander, personal/religion/race/ethnicity type of discussions :D  This is not broadcast television and the community is not bound by FCC :D  I think the forum needs a good disclaimer, and closed forum areas and you have all these concerns resolved. :D

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I haven't really seen Robert do anything that would bring ENIGMA in to disreputre. I'd am pretty confident I speak for everyone when I say that Robert has gone well above and beyond anyone on this forum.

Agreed, it is one thing to use an occasional SW when it is in context, and as long as you are not going into personal attacks territory.

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I have been away for 9 months, I come back and he is still chipping away like a Trojan.

Your timing was good actually he was busy for a while with his studies, and still was doing stuff whenever he could.....
but since you left there have been many good changes by sorlok and ego, make sure you are up to date on the latest portable and plugins :D

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As much as I am beginning to love TKG

lol !

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as well (the crazy bastard that he is :)), I just don't feel posts like this even belong on the forum http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=2217.msg22014#new

Just because something is 'non-profit' and completely controlled by volunteers, doesn't mean it can be professional.

People online say things ..... there have been topics opened by devs there....is it harmful ? no.  Weird ? yes.  But that's what closed forums are for, these kind of forums definitely should not be public view.  What should be public view are strictly the ENIGMA and anything ENIGMA / programming help related, along with a General Forum, work in progress, and finished games area, and other.
I do agree that these kind of topics and posts should not be public view, they might give a very wrong impression on the person writing it, and you can't blame people.  as sometimes even the most professional contributor or member might be tempted to reply to these topics and derail, including myself :D


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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #36 Posted on: September 26, 2014, 11:19:10 PM
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Josh earned a high level of respect with this post......Right on the money.
People often get judged for the bad things always, but never the good things, and especially when the good overpowers the bad.  Strong defender of freedom of expression.  This reminds me of people constantly complaining about others, people for example complaining of Howard Stern, yet they never miss a single show.....people complaining of a TV show yet never miss an episode....People complaining of a talk show host yet is a loyal viewer........whatever is done on the forum will never please anybody.

However, despite me agreeing with you Josh, I do think moderation has its place on a public forum, and here is how:

I think any kind of slander, defamatory remarks, attack to a person's character, integrity, any type of topics that could be liability for the site owners or anybody on the forum should be moderated.  Any attack to a person's race, religion, character, etc, has no place in such a community.....neither does it has its place in the source code !  Freedom of speech is one thing, and your constitution protects that freedom, BUT no constitution protects you from consequences of your words and acts.

I'm sure we can all have fun and let loose as a community and occasional derail but get quickly back on track, but certain things cross the line, the N word for example, or anything that could be deemed offensive for any prospects.  Imagine a skilled contributor joining and seeing the N word used in the source code and forum..........Certain VERY inappropriate shit was posted here that I don't even dare repeat textually in relation to a religion and *** chambers, etc, I think that topic was deleted by its author and that is a perfect example and BIG NO NO for any forum, and such comments could even warrant a site getting shut  down and authors prosecuted in some cases.

Moderation is good in such extreme cases, otherwise for anything else I am a strong supporter of free speech.  Certain people can be wrong and misinformation might come out of it, not everyone means it, that's why there are CIVIL ways to correct one another.  Cheers.

And about Robert, spot on !

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I'm not going to issue warns for "GayMaker: Stupido" any faster than I will for "Internet Exploder" or "Micro$oft," and the same goes for any names you can come up with for "ENIGMA." Actually, some people were already calling it "enigger" in the past, which was inspired by a particularly rude member who, fortunately for the rest of the community, only directed his rage at ENIGMA, me, and other contributors.

Ah yes does this user have a common dairy food product in his name ? LOL!

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The words reflect poorly on their speakers. It isn't my job nor my place to delete things others say where they are lawful in doing so. I prefer to point out my thoughts on their behavior.

Agree only to some extent, there are 2 types of users, those who occasionally derail and are good contributors both by code or thought or discussion, and then you have the trouble maker who joins only to flame others, insult, degrade, and is CLEAR and OBVIOUS shows no interest in your project or civil discussion, they are 100% trouble 0% worthy, do you really want that in your community as a site admin ?  Luckily here those concerned left, but  I stink as an admin it is your job to step in when things get extremely out of control to moderate, without necessarily censoring or banning but in certain situations say ENOUGH !  Of course you might claim otherwise that this is open forum open source, you are not a company ,etc....... It's a tough topic, and free speech is good but certain things definitely don't belong and cannot be good for your image, the site, the product, etc.  I'm not talking about the occasional cussing or derailments :D

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If there is something in particular you would like me to address, feel free to let me know. As stated, I don't issue bans for opinions.

When I joined this forum I recall some very heated very immature rants and fights between some developers, it was a major turn off.....what kept me here is my open mind and interest to the project and my disgust with the other side :D
Also clearly remember 1 or 2 individual who were on a clear rampage of insulting and degrading just about EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING.......there is a LIMIT as to what should be tolerated in my opinion.
These were posts INSIDE official forums.
Freedom of speech is good, it should belong in their own respective forums, closed and locked from view......but
insults, flames, fights, as I and many have read when joined INSIDE official forums does not send a good image.  Again, luckily things have calmed down quite a bit, and I know the users you are referring to.

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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #37 Posted on: September 27, 2014, 01:24:29 AM

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@Darkstar2:

Race, gender, sexual orientation, disabilities are not the same as religión and I resent your remark about we insulting you on this regard, neither I or anyone else EVER insulted you, because you are a fellow human and deserve respect, but your ideas and beliefs are not granted that same respect automatically.

Now if you think that by not respecting your ideas and/or beliefs someone is insulting you then the onus is on you and you alone; if ideas deserved respect shouldn't we respect the homofobe? and what about the racist? or the sexist? What about the bully that drives a homosexual kid to suicide? shouldn't we respect his ideas and beliefs too?

No mate, ideas do not automatically deserve respect, even when utered by people we love and respect, this doesn't mean I don't respect the person, only some of his/hers ideas.

But fear not, you can slander me on PM or in public all you want I wont respond to any post by you anymore.

Have a good life.

PS: To the rest of the community.- The reason religion, politics, and some other stuff is usually prohibited as a topic in most forums is because it can quickly degenerate in a flame war, not because it infringes any law.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 01:27:52 AM by edsquare » Logged
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Offline (Male) Goombert
Reply #38 Posted on: September 27, 2014, 03:16:37 AM

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I can't view the link Lonewolff, what was that all about?
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I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #39 Posted on: September 27, 2014, 04:09:40 AM
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@Darkstar2:

Race, gender, sexual orientation, disabilities are not the same as religión and I resent your remark about we insulting you on this regard,

For someone going to University and is quite smart, I am shocked about what I read, you are way smarter than that......but your post to me strikes me as ignorant ! but where the bloody hell did I mention that I was insulted in that regard ? Please quote me and I will correct myself. I was in no way insinuating anything, and was not referring to me at all, nor did I mention YOU or being insulted.  Sorry but you took it all wrong.

I was talking in the general sense, insults, flaming......I WAS NOT FUCKING TALKING ABOUT ME!!! I was referring to stuff I was reading when I first joined!
Nobody insulted me or my views on the topic. what we discussed is passed and finished and we moved on......you completely twisted what I said and ASSUMED.......Sad. and if I was giving examples, I certainly was not talking about you.....

There are ways to disagree with someone's point of view, and have a civil discussion - that is a general sense nothing to do with any past flames between us.

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neither I or anyone else EVER insulted you, because you are a fellow human and deserve respect, but your ideas and beliefs are not granted that same respect automatically.

I know that, you just started something that is unnecessary. Where is the problem?

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Now if you think that by not respecting your ideas and/or beliefs someone is insulting you then the onus is on you and you alone; if ideas deserved respect shouldn't we respect the homofobe? and what about the racist? or the sexist? What about the bully that drives a homosexual

I don't give a pile of crap if people don't respect my views, the point I was making is that insulting one's religion, attacking one's personal character, slander, defamation, ethnicity/race, hate, etc, are amongst the many things that DO NOT belong on a forum, leave me and our past out of this, I am just responding to the discussion the OP started. Has NOTHING to do with me or our disagreements.

if we are to come across as a friendly and helpful community......there are many other places where these things should be done and said.


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kid to suicide? shouldn't we respect his ideas and beliefs too?

That's another story.  It is one thing to discuss someone's beliefs, it is another to say things that could be hurtful to others.
Again in the general sense.....

Racism, hate, homophobia, attacks, slander, constant trolling, flaming,  I don't think this kind of horse manure belongs on this community.  When I joined, this is most of what I saw.......between certain people not here anymore.

1st amendment or freedom of expression or whatever, protects your freedom to express, even if it offends, but does not shield you from consequences of your words.  The whole topic is about how to make this place attractive and welcoming...

if you think that adopting the "anything can go" "anything can be said" attitude,
That is YOUR opinion.......we can all disagree, but don't put words in my goddamned mouth.

We would NEVER be able to have this kind of discussion on the GMC and majority of other forums, including open projects.

I believe keeping the fights and hate where the fuck it belongs, NOT HERE.
I am saying is as part of the discussion, not implying you, our past, our discussions or anything........

You took what I said completely out of context.  I have long even forgotten about that other topic, until you brought it up again.

You even admitted to me in PM and on public forum that you agreed these type of discussions should not be discussed and the reasons why.......

Peace.

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But fear not, you can slander me on PM or in public all you want I wont respond to any post by you anymore.

Read and digest what was written once again, don't try to get in the middle of something that had nothing to do with you OR our discussions or anybody else.

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PS: To the rest of the community.- The reason religion, politics, and some other stuff is usually prohibited as a topic in most forums is because it can quickly degenerate in a flame war, not because it infringes any law.

I never implied otherwise, but slander, defamatory remarks, attack to one's character/integrity, false accusations, the rest, is another story, hate, racism, and the rest, some countries have laws, including the UK.....if you want to keep a forum friendly and welcoming, which has potential for getting people from many countries, you have to apply common sense.  I don't mind debating with you anytime, but shit should not be done here, even less from public view......Some people say I should not even feed the trolls or bother responding, but won't stay quiet and not defend against this crap.
lonewolff can handle this far better lol!

I too agreed with you that religion and some hot topics are best not discussed because it can degenerate, so what's the point of this ?  It degenerates because of people like you.....otherwise had no problem discussing this with anybody else, I do it all the time offline, and I get along with everyone discussing these issues.

Cheers

Feel free to discuss ENIGMA or anything else with me......but I won't be discussing any hot topics or anything outside the realm of technology, enigma, etc, I can take the heat, but personal attacks, I will defend against.

or I will discuss with people with open mind !  I do apologise for ever discussing this with you as I see now why it was a problem and the trauma you went through, you should have just stayed the fuck out of the conversation or told me to stop discussing it with you I would have respected it..........
Sad
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 04:29:56 AM by Darkstar2 » Logged
Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #40 Posted on: September 27, 2014, 06:32:16 PM
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I was halfway through writing a wall of text on this thread about this last night, but iOS8 decided to crap itself just as I hit 'post'.

So here is the much abbreviated version.

ENIGMA is not just the source code. It is everything. It is probably more so this forum, than the source.

Take 2 scenarios -

1) Walk in to a burger shop.

"Here is your burger, sir. We threw in some extra fries for you  (Y)"

Customer comes back because of the friendly service.

2) Walk in to a burger shop.

"Here your 'fuckin' burger you black 'nigga' cunt! GTFO, before I bust a cap in your ass!"

Customer loves the burger. Best one he has ever haid. Never goes back to the shop because of the appauling attitude.


#2 is the perception newcomers have of this forum. Take it from me. Take it from people who have not returned.

I want what is best for the project. Project being the entire thing, not the C++ project files you download.

If it takes a 'fork' of ENIGMA, I am all for it and I am happy to drive the ship. (Obviously adhereing to the current licence - so don't even go there if you are tempted. This topic isn't about licencing.)

Just my 2 cents though. Essentially I am still an outsider :)
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Offline (Unknown gender) Aegar
Reply #41 Posted on: September 27, 2014, 06:45:35 PM

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I don't care if 90% of people who come here on scouting missions see the community in an "unprofessional" state and leave—my job here is to maximize contributing members first, and other members second.

I can respect this and I understand that you would never give up Robert or any other contributing member (I don't think it would be right to kick them out either) but here's a question for you: is it a primary goal of yours to increase ENIGMA's profile as a viable game engine for hobby and commercial devs? What good is the best engine in the world if no one cares enough to use it?

Or from another angle, what is the ultimate reason for ENIGMA's existence?
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Offline (Unknown gender) lonewolff
Reply #42 Posted on: September 27, 2014, 06:51:24 PM
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^^ That is exactly what I am getting at  (Y)

If there is no care of the entire management of the project, what is the purpose of the project itself?

Might as well be a project that sits somewhere in the Documents folder on your hard drive rather than be published on the net.
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Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #43 Posted on: September 27, 2014, 07:38:30 PM

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If it wasn't on the net, then the developers wouldn't have found it. I personally also don't really care whether someone uses ENIGMA or not (and I am so tired of saying this). As Josh has pointed out millions of times already - this is a FOSS and we do it not because "we want to change the world" or some other stupid start-up slogan. We do it because we can and we personally want to. It's like when a person wants to make a painting, but he doesn't plan to sell it. We are not a company, and this, in fact, isn't a product.
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Offline (Male) Josh @ Dreamland
Reply #44 Posted on: September 27, 2014, 07:43:26 PM

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The reason for ENIGMA's existence is precisely the reason the community is in such a state. Yoyo Games is a corporation. The function of a corporation is to maximize the profit of its shareholers. A burger shop that calls its customers "nigga cunts" is failing on that front: customers are required to draw a profit, and rudeness deters customers. ENIGMA is instead an open-source project; it exists according to the desires of its contributors. Because it is open-source, it receives contributions from people of a whole spectrum of motives.

Harri develops for himself. As a hobby, he said, in this thread I believe. He develops ENIGMA because he wants to use it.

When I was young, I developed ENIGMA because I wanted to use it—I wanted a Game Maker that Yoyo wasn't in charge of. Now, when I develop, I do so just to finish what I started.

The person who wrote this site, a2h (currently notachair), contributed the layout for three reasons: he liked where the project was going, he and I were friends, and he wanted something to add to his professional profile.

Ironically, Robert is the only active contributor right now who does so with the purpose of drawing a community.

If it were up to me, our site would look more like other open-source compiler sites which you might find equally lackluster. ENIGMA is a compiler. LateralGM is an IDE. These forums are a place we have users discuss both—I because I encourage open-source development, Harri because he likes not being the only person working on ENIGMA, and Robert because... well, I'm honestly not sure why Robert does the things he does.

I can't speak to other big contributors' motives. Maybe sorlok has a comment on why he puts up with us? As far as I can tell, Egofree sees that the project is just under the threshold of "good enough to compile this game," and so he pours time into pushing it over. If you asked any one of them if they'd like a bigger community, they'd all say yes. But it isn't the end of the world to any of us (except Robert? Maybe?) if no one else ever posts here again. If we can make this community more accommodating, I'm happy to do so—provided it doesn't infringe on the less ephemeral users' rights to be here.

That said, the burger stand analogy further breaks down at what happens when the employee mouths off to customers. I can't fire Robert and hire a replacement. If I could find people who wanted to work for Robert's wage, I'd be out doing so. Since I can't, yes, this community functions as our only net. I'm not sure what it says that such a substantial fraction of our community are contributors; I see it as a positive. I won't speak for the other contributors further, but I'll point out that they're still around.

In essence, a burger stand has easily replaceable employees and serves to maximize shareholder value, which involves maximizing consumer goodwill. ENIGMA has non-reimbursed, at-will contributors, and for its health needs to maximize contributor value first, which is largely independent of community politics.


Now, all that said, I probably come across as a little negative. Let me share you the good news: we are a rarity among open-source projects in that we don't kick people out for having an opinion. I am frequently stunned by how amazingly, cruelly rude developers are on open-source projects on GitHub. Nothing paints a better picture of what I am trying to convey than any arbitrary post on a GitHub repo I used to watch, whose name I'll withhold because I'm not here to point fingers. ENIGMA contributors, including Robert, are exceptionally kind; not a whole lot of projects have developers who will drop what they are doing to investigate an issue posted over an IRC. The developers on the GitHub repository I have in mind will barely investigate actual bug reports before closing the issue with a snide remark about how it's likely the user's fault. I've been impressed by Robert's ability to respond calmly and helpfully to some pretty dumb posts on our tracker, over and over. Many developers forget that the body of users is not one entity which can remember being informed why an issue is not a bug.

And let's face it: have you two never gotten into a scuffle with the moderation team of products you do pay for? And how quick were they to remind you that you can be banned at any moment for any reason?

There's a certain merit to having people feel that they can speak freely without being banned, ridiculed, or otherwise cast out. If nothing else, we have that here.
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