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Offline (Unknown gender) The 11th plague of Egypt
Reply #30 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 08:26:10 AM
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III) Mormon Christianity
This is the most recently founded flavor of the Christian faith.

A) The founder of this religion had a "vision" from an *angel* named Moroni. The angel told him that Modern Christianity has been corrupted and the angel told him how it should've really been.

Galatians 1:6-9 in both Protestant and Catholic Christianity, which came long before the the Mormon faith says:
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6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Moroni was an angel from heaven, so to speak. Why Would God say 2000 years ago "let even angel from haven be cursed if it perverted my Gospel" and then an Angel comes down and does just that. Neither perception I consider correct, but imagining if one were correct, which would be more likely? Protestants/Catholics, or Mormons?

B) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.
South Park has one of the best introductions on the foundation of Mormonism you can watch in less than 7 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06jF1EG8o-Q
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Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #31 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 09:16:07 AM

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I agree that it needs to be called "climate change", because otherwise people get wrong impression. That was an oversight of the original scientists (who wrote papers for the scientific community, not the general public), as they never meant that it will get warmer and warmer. This misunderstanding is clearly shown when in winters we have record low temperatures and some people see it as a "proof that global warming doesn't happen" - which totally misses the point about the global warming. So it's called man-made climate change now. And the impact of that is visible in many different ways (like the number and scale of hurricanes USA experiences). But I personally love all the projects countries now invest in, especially EU, where we have renewable energy, support for electric vehicles, reducing air-population and so on. Even if 50 years from now the whole thing ends up as a false alarm, the world is still better off. But that some scientists are looked at differently because their opinions differ is logical - difference in opinion creates friction. But that doesn't mean they are fired or ignored. They are in some places, but in many places they aren't. Also, it isn't about the money they get because they would get money in either case. Those who are against man-made climate change still get paid if they still work as climate scientists. It's of course harder for them to get grants, because the majority has different opinion and so the whole community has different goals. It's like if a group of scientists wanted to launch a satellite to find possible evidence for invisible pink unicorn, while the others want to launch a satellite to study other galaxies. Of course the one with the galaxies will get funding more easily, even if the unicorn one still had merit. Basically it's down to Occam's Razor.
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #32 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 10:23:24 AM

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Another example : in Switzerland we heard during many years that global warming was terrible, because we will see no more snow in ski resorts.  But as we have seen more snow during the previous years, now the same who were talking about global warming say it's normal because it's climate change ! What a joke ! :D (Well, not so funny because we want to spend billions for this scam).

Actually most if not all the "scientists" that deny global warming/climate change are paid by the oil and vehicle companys, so I am more weary of what they say since it's more likely that them would "find" "proof" that pleases their employer than the other (bigger) portion of the scientists.

Climate has been recorded for a very long time:



Global average temperature since 1880. This graph from NOAA shows the annual trend in average global air temperature in degrees Celsius, through December 2013. For each year, the range of uncertainty is indicated by the gray vertical bars. The blue line tracks the changes in the trend over time. (Image courtesy NOAA's National Climatic Data Center.)

As the average temperature rises (more slowly than originaly predicted true), the polar icecaps melt and dwindle, this changes the temperature of the oceans and ultimately could even change/destroy the currents that go from the poles to the Ecuador, this would result in all the plankton disapearing which in turn would trigger a mass extintion in the oceans which more likely than not would be followed by a mass extinction in land too.

As TheExDeus said better safe than sorry, in this case Pascal's wager makes sense, if we stop pulluting the environment, stop using oil and turn to green energy sources, and turns out it was a false alarm what do we as a species lose? In return if we don't and it turns out to be true...

We could be the receivers of a Darwin's Prize to natural selection (too dumb and too proud to survive).

Did you know that in the USA most of the people that deny climate change do so because in the bible after the flood god promised to Noah never to kill everything again by a flood? And since the poles melting would cause an increase in sea levels (Global flood), this is in clear contradiction to god's word; and that prick has our best interest in mind of course, that's why he can't be bothered to make it clear he exists and stop once and for all the religious wars being fought right now in the world. And if you don't think there are religious wars... just check out who the USA atacked after 9/11, who else have they attacked, how many muslim countries are being bombarded by them, not to mention the ongoing war between Israel and the Muslim world. And lets not forget all the bombings being made by muslim terrorists so they can die as martirs and be granted 72 virgins in paradise!
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #33 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 10:46:04 AM

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Actually most if not all the "scientists" that deny global warming/climate change are paid by the oil and vehicle companys, so I am more weary of what they say since it's more likely that them would "find" "proof" that pleases their employer than the other (bigger) portion of the scientists.

You said that science should be concerned only about facts, and now you show the contrary ! ;D If some scientists don't agree with our dogma, they are all corrupted ! You are just using ad hominem attack, which is the contrary of a scientific approach. Very funny !

The key word here is likely, and that's what, to my view, makes what a said anything but ad hominem.

Facts are in the climate change camp favor and they are free to search and investigate in the web if you want to do so.

The problem with climate is that it's really complicated to understand all the variables involved and its effects on climate if any, check out the number and intensity of hurricanes, tornadoes, storms, hailstorms, the colder winters, in my country (México), more close to the ecuator than the USA we just had a "Spring" colder than ever, and this Summer doesn't look like it's gona be really hot (so far), and this is just what climate change predicts: the seasons will start to be less noticeable in some latitudes and more extreme in others, little by little the scientific predictions are comming true; lukily for us more slowly than originaly predicted, and what do we do? take advantage of the extra time to insure our survival? noooo, we turn against people who study the science and say since it didn't happen exactly when you said all is bulldoky, clever really clever humans.
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Offline (Male) Rusky
Reply #34 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 10:46:09 AM

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Climate change is real, and really caused in part by humans. Those who deny it are just as bad as conspiracy theorists, religious fanatics, etc.- they can throw graphs at you with different time scales and talk about natural climate cycles all day, but the fact is our changes are bigger and faster and we're causing real problems.

And not to downplay the very real problems caused by global warming, why would you not want to reduce our waste and pollution? There are plenty of other, much less controversial reasons.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #35 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 12:28:25 PM
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Climate change, so people saying what we are experiencing is normal and always been ? Maybe to some extent but not the frequency and intensity.  On the topic of kids becoming more violent, more evil, more hate, school shootings every other day, etc.  Funny but back generations kids were more polite, respectful, they would not dare talk up to their professors or parents, etc, now is a whole different bloody story.  I do agree that humans play a role in their downfall but in my opinion, there is outside evil influence.
I stress though these are my opinions and beliefs I never claimed they were RIGHT.  It's a very delicate topic and difficult at the same time because there are lot of yet unanswered mysteries that even science cannot provide, so an opinion / belief is one thing and fact is another.  There are still big mysteries and unexplained things surrounding us.....some people think ETs will invade us, some people claim we live simultaneously in different dimensions, with different outcomes on our lives, etc......Can you answer the riddles and mysteries ? No, so at that point people will speculate.  Maybe all of this shite is just moot and we started from void and will return to void........ or maybe there is more.......but as long as we are in our physical bodies at this current state we will NEVER know all the answers, and maybe that is intentional or we would have been hard wired to know them.

I respect those who don't share these beliefs but I have yet to be convinced otherwise, that our lives would be wasted all for nothing, that there is no purpose, that we go through all this fucking bloody for nothing in the end.......I have a hard time with that :D

« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 12:30:21 PM by Darkstar2 » Logged
Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #36 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 02:06:10 PM

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@darkstar2:

Evil outside influence? You mean the devil made them doit? And when somebody does something good then god made them doit?

In my humble opinion that's hogwash, it's humans trying to avoid owning responsability for their own actions.

Kids more violent now than in past generations? Depends where you look, in the USA yes but that's not the devil, that's the rate of divorce, the all powerful dollar being more important than anything else, if you want to be the top dog in your line of work, you have to check if that ambition is compatible with having children, who said you have to do it all? some of us are not suited to have children, I strongly believe there should be a psichological test before marriage and another before having children.

Kids talking back... Well if you as a parent are never arround, never ofer any support, only criticyse and downplay any achievement of your children, and think that just because you donated half their genetic code they have to respect you and obey you uncuestionigly... You are wrong, I don't believe in following orders blindly, not even in the military, if your commander tells you to go and burn a hospital full of doctors, nurses and pacients just because they are of the wrong religion/color/status/etc. would you do it? I woudn't, I don't expect my son to blindly obey me, I preach by example, I don't do drugs (and never have) I don't drink (except for a glass or two on special ocasions) I don't steal, don't cheat, don't chase tail, I do pay my taxes, respect the law, etc. and when a rule is cuestioned I give reasons, not just because I say so!

Since in the judeo/christian religions the devil was created by god (before he was the devil he was an angel of the highest order) and since god is supossed to be allknowing... He should have known that lucifer was going to rebel even before creating him, then why create him? I wouldn't and I'm only an imperfect human. The plan, gods mysterious ways, everything happens for a reason; excuses and platitudes religious people are willing to make for their god but not for other humans nor in any other field.

The Devil's Advocate is a great film, and in the speach the devil gives to keanu lays a good amount of thrut and reason.

Why give us the ability to think and reason and then ask us to blindly believe in something? to never cuestion?

Faith is believing not only without evidence, but against all evidence in contraposition with your beliefs. Faith is the willful suspension of your ability to think, to reason, to analyze, to cuestion, and blindly follow orders. In what other aspect of our lives is the burden of proof placed in any other but the absurd claims? If I were to tell you that I have in my garage an invisible, intangible, all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent leprechaun, most of you would laugh at me and with just reason. If I claim that an invisible little man in my head talks to me and answer back when I talk to him I would be russhed to the nearest Psichiatric ward, put under heavy medication and probably never to see the outside again.

But if I claim it's god (Alah, Yahawe, Christ, Buda, etc.) who speaks to me then it's normal?

By the way people do come back from clynical death, but never, and I mean never has been a documented case of someone coming back after being brain dead. When you undergo surgery they don't attach you to an EKG or whatever is the name of the machine that measures brain activity, there's a cardiac monitor, one for blood presure and temperature even but not one for brain activity, if you don't believe me check it out.

The failure of prayer.- There have been double blind tests where of two groups of pacients with similar affections one groups names was given to people (that didn't knew it was a scientific test) to pray for the sick ones, neither group knew if there was people praying for them, and the results were that the rate and speed of recovery demonstrated ZERO impact of the prayers.

Also do you honestly believe that the parents of sick children do not pray for them?

That there are not people, right now praying for the war to end?

For a cure for cancer, hiv, and many other deseases?

For all the gays to die a horrible death?

And guess what, none of those prayers is ever answered, the people that do get cured from cancer either had a spontaneous remision (which do happens even to atheist or devil worshopers) or were under treatment and the scientific treatment cures them, but we always hear thank good joe nobody got cured from his cancer, if you ask was he in treatment? yes they say without even blinking, WTF? god cured him? Give me a breack!

By the way those people that want the gays to die, to be put to death, to have no rights... Those people are the ones following the Tora/Bible/Coran correctly not we that think it's not right to kill people based on their sexual preferences (unless they are child molesters, rapist and such).
Leviticus 20:13 http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm


It's those people that would be happy to stone me to death if they hearme say that god does not exist who are the true christians, not the ones that don't. Hebrews 6:4-8 and 2 Chronicles 15:13 among others http://www.openbible.info/topics/apostasy

It's the people that believe in witches and that they should be put to death the true belivers not the ones that don't. Exodus 22:18 http://biblehub.com/exodus/22-18.htm

It's the people that believe that those rebel children, the ones that talk back to their parents should be put to death, and their parents should be the ones making the chargers and throwing stones. Deuteronomy 21:20 http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/21-20.htm
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Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #37 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 02:06:30 PM

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I respect those who don't share these beliefs but I have yet to be convinced otherwise, that our lives would be wasted all for nothing, that there is no purpose, that we go through all this fucking bloody for nothing in the end.......I have a hard time with that :D
But this is exactly what I was mentioning before. You think this life is somehow a "waste". I don't know you that well, so your life really could suck and be aimless. But mine isn't. And the fact that I find this life to be the only one is one of the most motivating factors to find a reason for it. If you understand that your life is 80 years and then nothing, then you start to respect those years and not waste them. You find many reasons, many motivations, many purposes. If you cannot find any besides "God and Heaven", then maybe "God" is to blame?
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #38 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 02:30:35 PM

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I respect those who don't share these beliefs but I have yet to be convinced otherwise, that our lives would be wasted all for nothing, that there is no purpose, that we go through all this fucking bloody for nothing in the end.......I have a hard time with that :D
But this is exactly what I was mentioning before. You think this life is somehow a "waste". I don't know you that well, so your life really could suck and be aimless. But mine isn't. And the fact that I find this life to be the only one is one of the most motivating factors to find a reason for it. If you understand that your life is 80 years and then nothing, then you start to respect those years and not waste them. You find many reasons, many motivations, many purposes. If you cannot find any besides "God and Heaven", then maybe "God" is to blame?

God is not to blame since blaming a non existing entity for something is a waste of time, religion is to blame, if every religion is man made as darkstar2 correctly stated... what about the gods those religions worship?

As TheExDeus says, anything is more precious, more valuable if there's little of it, time is precious because we can't make more of it, also the environment since we can't create another earth, what about my life? can anybody give a nanosecond more of it? No and since it's going to end sometime in the distant future (I hope) it's the most precious, the most valuable commodity I have, not to be squandered in any way.

The past is gone, the future may not come, so live today as if it were the last day of your life.

In other words : Carpe diem
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #39 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 02:31:53 PM

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@TKG:

Contradictions you are searching?

Well search no more : http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
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Offline (Unknown gender) TheExDeus
Reply #40 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 02:44:10 PM

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God is not to blame since blaming a non existing entity for something is a waste of time, religion is to blame, if every religion is man made as darkstar2 correctly stated... what about the gods those religions worship?
I put "God" in quotes for a reason. What I was trying to say was that "your belief in God makes you not value your life".
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #41 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 02:55:56 PM

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God is not to blame since blaming a non existing entity for something is a waste of time, religion is to blame, if every religion is man made as darkstar2 correctly stated... what about the gods those religions worship?
I put "God" in quotes for a reason. What I was trying to say was that "your belief in God makes you not value your life".

Sorry my bad, I stand corrected.  :)
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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #42 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 04:15:41 PM

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Oh would you look what I started.

FUCK.

Darkstar2 please don't turn into what I've grown out of. :P

Play nice children.

Edit: Thx edsquare that is quite the find. *highfive* :D

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@TKG:

Contradictions you are searching?

Well search no more : http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 04:17:26 PM by time-killer-games » Logged
Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #43 Posted on: July 12, 2014, 04:37:42 PM

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Oh would you look what I started.

FUCK.

Darkstar2 please don't turn into what I've grown out of. :P

Play nice children.

Edit: Thx edsquare that is quite the find. *highfive* :D

Quote
@TKG:

Contradictions you are searching?

Well search no more : http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

And to think that not so long ago you were a full blown creationist... :)

Well I used to be pedling superstition and ignorance to my fellow humans so...
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #44 Posted on: July 13, 2014, 01:07:30 PM
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You were priest / minister whatever it was your job to peddle, I'm not a minister, just have my beliefs usually I keep them to myself and could bloody care less what people around me think, I respect what they think though, but since the topic was open I added my 2 cents. I'm sharing what I believe but don't tell people don't believe or that they are crazy for not believing nor do I use insults or personal attacks to people not having the same faith, :P but I guess not everyone is like that.

In all fairness, it is true that there are contradictions and crap everywhere but both sides, religion used as a tool to brainwash people and make it an industry......AND the other side trying to discredit religion and faith (but NOT for the right reasons) just as a tool for shite stirring, propaganda and their own agendas, so the 2 sides are guilty......:D

Yet these same people still fail to answer the questions.....many things science cannot explain, people seem to deny it.  Of course this is no "PROOF" of a God per se, but again, there is no EVIDENCE that there is nothing outside our physical realm......  Those who say "Nah there is no God, no nothing" still cannot answer these mysteries, they are not even willing to believe in the notion there is something more out there, outside the physical world. but that's ok.

Some people who flame and send personal attacks you have not lived experienced nor are you experienced in life.....  Let's forget about Religion and God for a moment, put that aside and explain how some people are the nicest people with the best of intentions and get the biggest crap out of life, failing in everything they do, it's as if they have a shite magnet, no matter how positive or what they do........ There are many people like that, hence the theory we are born predisposed for certain things, out of our control, how to explain this ? Who's experiment are we ?

That said, this is the last I contribute to this topic.  I respect what others say and their beliefs I expect the same but I guess that seems too much to ask......I don't know how old you lot are, but I am one those motherfuckers described herein, that has gone out of my way to think of others and do good and yet I seem to have a shite magnet gene.....so yeah.......What do I know right ? But that has never deterred me from my faith though because on the counter side, I have things others don't, and I could brag.  So it's all about how people deal with shite and what you make of what you have and not what you don't.

That said I think people misunderstand.  There are many types of people, religious, fanatics, etc. I'm not religious motherfuckers, far from it, not even close to practicing catholic, but I have faith and I work differently than a typical religious person, I don't let dictate my life, and there are lot of rubbish I don't buy into either, you'd be surprised, most people who know me would probably take me for an atheist as I am not quite the example of a typical "religion incrusted catholic".  I believe in a supreme being and I believe we are only part of something bigger.... That's it......
And I do acknowledge the flaws of religion and its atrocities, most fanatics would never admit that, so I think there has been some misunderstanding or people have not fully read and comprehend. :D

Cheers.

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