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Author Topic: Holes in everything...  (Read 5932 times)
Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Posted on: July 11, 2014, 01:28:59 PM

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There are many holes in literally every premature conclusion as to how this universe exists. Please forgive me I'm too lazy to have a citation for everything. I'll make each subject matter a different post to play it safe on the per-post character limit.

I) Protestant Christianity
Christians ignore a ton of major flaws in their belief system. They acknowledge these things exist, but don't call them "flaws" without giving reasons because there aren't any.

A) The mark of the Beast is 666. There is a footnote under the New International Version (NIV) translation stating a clear contradiction that some ancient records say the mark is 616 instead of 666. If God were truly God he could at least preserve his Holy Word to be a tad more consistent.

B) Depending on the verse reference and translation, the cloth Jesus was wearing when hung on the cross was either scarlet (red) or purple, which are not the same color. There are multiple mentions of that cloth he was wearing, in the same exact bible version, whichever you choose to view, within the exact same translation you'll find this self-contradiction.

C) The Old Testament prophesies the Messiah to never break a single bone during his future visit on earth. Now, in the New Testament, aka this so called future, they the writers of the four Gospels try to make it sound consistent with that prophesy but failed miserably. The two thieves who were crucified beside Jesus had their legs broken so they could die quicker and more painfully. However they didn't do that to Jesus because he died quickly before they had a chance to do the same to him. So they stabbed his gut with a spear instead, to verify his death.

Please note he probably died sooner due being whipped with chains of hard metals and bone, he was kicked, etc many other forms of physical abuse the two thieves  fortunately didn't have to go through. Since Jesus had nails going directly into his hands and feet as mentioned specifically in every translation of the Protestant Bible, his bones were broken indeed. An epic failure of the storytellers'. Hands and feet have very fragile bones. Try sticking a huge 3-inch diameter'd nail anywhere in there and watch them break.

D) Many more yet to be listed. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.
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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #1 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 01:44:24 PM

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II) Catholic Christianity
Catholics have (in theory) even more holes in their faith than Protestants, even with the fact Catholics have been around MUCH longer!

A) What kind of "just" or "perfect" God would give his holy priests the reputation of general rapists and child molesters? 'Nuff said.

B) Pray to Mary? Pray to Holy Saints in Heaven? If a saint in heaven doesn't forgive me neither will Jesus? That's right, they have all the books the Protestants do but with "additional" books the Protestants don't. In the Protestant Bible, it's very clear and blatant (especially in Acts and Paul's letters) you don't pray to anyone but Jesus Himself (or the Trinity). But the "other" books the Protestants dropped and the Catholics kept don't say that at all. Your etenerinty doesn't have to be completely due to the Trinity's final decision, heck, what if someone who's in heaven doesn't like you? You're going to hell babe.

C) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 02:00:18 PM by time-killer-games » Logged
Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #2 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 01:58:38 PM

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III) Mormon Christianity
This is the most recently founded flavor of the Christian faith.

A) The founder of this religion had a "vision" from an *angel* named Moroni. The angel told him that Modern Christianity has been corrupted and the angel told him how it should've really been.

Galatians 1:6-9 in both Protestant and Catholic Christianity, which came long before the the Mormon faith says:
Quote
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Moroni was an angel from heaven, so to speak. Why Would God say 2000 years ago "let even angel from haven be cursed if it perverted my Gospel" and then an Angel comes down and does just that. Neither perception I consider correct, but imagining if one were correct, which would be more likely? Protestants/Catholics, or Mormons?

B) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.
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Offline (Unknown gender) Darkstar2
Reply #3 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 01:58:54 PM
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I will sum this up in a very short sentence.

I DO believe in God, and I am catholic, mind you I don't go to Church every Sunday  and last time I was in one was ages ago, yet I am do have faith. That said, religion is man made, and scriptures were man written so there is bound to have been some misinterpretations or flaws along the line.

That said, looking at what is going around the world, and what is written in scripture you could clearly see some amazingly accurate information, but there have been many version of said scripture so again are you surprised of any bias of information or flaws along the way in the translations ?

I'm not.

:D
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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #4 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 02:15:45 PM

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You'll like this one then Darkstar2 ;)

IV) Evolution / Darwinism
While this is the most likely candidate of truth, it has a colorful variety of holes of it's own.

A) People and dinosaurs lived together long before the extinction, as ancient records, cave paintings, mosaics, and architectures have shown. Hard core evolutionists try to hide this from the public because they don't know what to make of it. Check out this interesting article, written by an evolutionist I might add...

http://searchwarp.com/swa791121-Did-Ancient-People-Believe-That-Dinosaurs-Were-Their-Contemporaries.htm

I hate how he words it. "Did ancient people really "believe" they could see dinosaurs?" As if something you could physically see, observe, describe and make artwork of so scientifically accurate, was something at all psychological or "all in their head". The fact is we lived among dinosaurs. Instead of acting like evolution is disproved by it and hiding it from the public or writing skeptical articles, we could just brainstorm a logical explanation behind it. It doesn't prove or disprove anything. We just had a slight misconception of how it all played out which is no big deal, won't shake the theory one bit if you ask me. Yes it's a hole, but I wouldn't call it permanent hole as we have a lot yet to discover in this universe.

B) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 02:22:39 PM by time-killer-games » Logged
Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #5 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 02:58:27 PM

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To TKG:

ALL religions and all gods are man made, if there's a god he sucks at:

Management.- The natural disasters, the way the religion is a bussines more than anything else, etc.

Design.- Search for the Laryngeal Nerve of a Giraffe, it is a really bad enginering design, also who in his right mind puts a recreation area nex to the waste disposal plant?

Justice.- Infinite punishment for finite crimes, I'm not perfect but I would never throw my son in a dungeon (let alone hell) for not loving me and me alone. Homosexuality is an abomination? Thinking someone is hot/sexy is a crime? You should stone your rebeld children in the town square?

Comunication.- How come there are so many versions of the "holly" "sacred" book? Not only the judeo/christian/muslim versions, the Rig-Veda, the Bhagavad Gita among miriad others.

Originality.- Most of the judeo/christian mithology is a blatant copy of previous mithologies: Noe-Gilgamesh, Jesus-Mithras-Osiris-Dionysus, among tons of other examples.

Veracity/Accuracy.- The earth is not flat, the firmament is not a dome, the stars are not fixed or hanging from/to anything, humanity does not descend from a single pair of ancestors, the animals were not "created" in their current form, there is no way a wooden boat big enough to hold all the animals of the earth (at least a pair of each, in some cases seven animals) could survive the supposed flood, how did the cangaroos reach the arch and got back to Australia without leaving bodies behind? where did Noe store all the food for the animals? (even conceding the hypothesis of the carnivores becoming vegetarian the plants would not last that long fresh) How did the fresh/salt water fishes survive the colapse of their ecosystem? When the waters receded there was not a single square meter of fertile land anywhere, how did Noe plant anything? how did the ecosystem and mankind recover fast enough for the babel tower myth to take place?

I rest my case.

Yes I am an atheist, but that wasn't always the case, in fact I'm an ordain mynister.  :o
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 03:00:55 PM by edsquare » Logged
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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #6 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 03:15:05 PM

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Those are some great points edsquare but I won't list them for the following reasons.

1) Christians have the mentality that all things are possible with God so just anyone could make the excuse for example the kangaroos didn't make fossils outside of Australia for the same reason it rained frogs in Egypt. The "all things are possible with God" excuse.

2) you didn't list a contradiction between two points within the religion. The contradictions you listed are between the religion and scientific reality. With any deity that's utterly in control of everything. Comparing a religion with real science won't mean anything to a Christian. Christians (like all other religious folk) don't believe in "science". It's a foreign concept to them.

Edit.

I'm aware of the Giraffe issue and how it has a special vein to prevent it's head from exploding when it bends down for a drink I knew you were talking about that without googling it. The funny thing is when I went to private school they mentioned that specifically as not as a stupid/sloppy design, but as an intelligent design and to make the radical point to somehow disprove evolution. Here you are using the same example to argue the opposite. I personally agree with you but it's crazy what these loonies can come up with. xD

PS I used to be a christian and therefore I have a lot of close Christian friends in my personal life.It's so fucking annoying but I have to act like I believe around them. I have to force myself to not curse and not be anything like who I really am just so they'll stay my friends. It's annoying as fuck. Everyone who I know who aren't Christians from public school hate me because I've in times past told them they were going to hell as of before my braincells budded. So it's like I admit to being an atheist now and lose all my friends or suck it up indefinitely.
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #7 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 03:52:02 PM

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Those are some great points edsquare but I won't list them for the following reasons.

1) Christians have the mentality that all things are possible with God so just anyone could make the excuse for example the kangaroos didn't make fossils outside of Australia for the same reason it rained frogs in Egypt. The "all things are possible with God" excuse.

2) you didn't list a contradiction between two points within the religion. The contradictions you listed are between the religion and scientific reality. With any deity that's utterly in control of everything. Comparing a religion with real science won't mean anything to a Christian. Christians (like all other religious folk) don't believe in "science". It's a foreign concept to them.

Edit.

I'm aware of the Giraffe issue and how it has a special vein to prevent it's head from exploading when it bends down for a drink I knew you were talking about that without googling it. The funny thing is when I went to private school they mentioned that specifically as not as a stupid/sloppy design, but as an intelligent design and to make the radical point to somehow disprove evolution. Here you are using the same example to argue the opposite. I personally agree with you but it's crazy what these loonies can come up with. xD

No it's not a vein in the giraffe but a nerve that goes from the brain all the way down the neck to the torso and then up to connect to the laringe.

Also about your evolution and dinosaurs point:

In Science you never dismis some evidence because it would disprove your Hypothesis, you take the facts and then revise and adjust your hypothesis to take in account those facts.

We live with Dinosaurs today my friend, in fact every time you eat a turkey, or chicken, hear a bluejay or watch an Ostrich you're seeing a Dinosaur. But did ever a human being live among the gigantic ancestors of the birds? No, unless you count the Flintstones and/or the folks at the creation museum, in the caves of Laxcaux you see beautyful and very accurate paintings of the animals the people of that time hunted, if they had seen a Tryceratops, or a T-Rex, don't you think they would have painted them? Every single "evidence" of Dinosaurs living among humans has been thorougly debunked.

If you're searching for inconsistencies in the Bible you need only make one stop http://atheism.about.com/od/biblecontradictionserror/

The best is why not a single Christian follows all the commandments? there are 613 of them if I recall correctly.

Check this out: http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.pdf

Also do some research about the ten commandments, right now I dont remember where do they appear as we recognize them as cast in stone but when they do they are not the ones you know.

Also how about Thou shalt not kill? and then Moses and his God go around killing and raping all over the place.

Edit: And in regards to the God versus Science controversy, would not an almighty, allknowing deity give more factual/accurate descriptions of it's "creation"? Would an allpowerfull deity give us a brain, curiosity, and reason only to tell us not to use them to understand the "creation" it made for us? Would He/She/It dictate a book? or would He/She/It find a better way to express it's dictates? Why has He/She/It never contradicted the human errors in interpreting the book? Why is there a commandment about mixed fabrics and the color of the satchels but not about not rapping children? (Something not only the catholic church is guilty of)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 04:00:28 PM by edsquare » Logged
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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #8 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 04:04:21 PM

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Something I know you're not understanding about my point on dinosaurs. Some evolved. While others didn't based on their ecosystems. We see birds, yes, those were dinosaurs. But it's not like we can say all dinosaurs evolved into birds. The ones who were living amoung humans must have died off or had their evolution delayed due to what was required for them to live on in their ecosystem. To say all dinosaurs became birds over the same time span and rate as time went on is like saying we aren't living among apes because they evolved into us. We still see great apes. There's a reason for that. When a species evolves, it's relative to what it needs to survive better.

Apes are not humans. Birds are not dinosaurs. They are completely different species with entirely different genetic code and genetic compatibilities.while we came from apes, they aren't the same thing. Likewise for birds and dinosaurs. Try raping a gorrilla or mating a bird with pleasiosaur. It won't happen. It doesn't mean all apes are going to become like us. Apes of today may take a completely different route due to their circumstance. They might even die off.

I don't know why all these people can justify ignoring we made a minor mistake in our our observations. We lived with dinosaurs.  It isn't a creationist's scam and that article I linked was written by an evolutionist. He even mentions other evolutionists (who still are evolutionists to date) who used to be skeptical about dinosaurs living among us, but they changed their minds and accepted it as reality. And (gasp) they stayed evolutionists! Didn't stop them from being rational one bit! :P
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #9 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 04:05:50 PM

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PS I used to be a christian and therefore I have a lot of close Christian friends in my personal life.It's so fucking annoying but I have to act like I believe around them. I have to force myself to not curse and not be anything like who I really am just so they'll stay my friends. It's annoying as fuck. Everyone who I know who aren't Christians from public school hate me because I've in times past told them they were going to hell as of before my braincells budded. So it's like I admit to being an atheist now and lose all my friends or suck it up indefinitely.

Yea, I know what you are going thru, all of my family (or almost) are devout christians, even my wife, and I'm still in the closet for fear of loosing them, but this is not a way to live, I'm planing in coming out to them some time before Christmas; if they truly love me then it will not matter, and if they can't accept me as I am...

fuck them!
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Reply #10 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 04:11:00 PM

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Well, many of you probably already realized I'm not really a man of faith. But you don't understand that when I was little, I believed in god very much through my grandparents and family. Yes it is extremely annoying when you start to realize the flaws that nobody will dare attempt to reconcile.

I can be a bit atheistic and devilish at times, but I'm really agnostic, and by that I don't mean that I believe there is a God. For instance, there are simulation hypotheses about the universe, we could be a really advanced version of The Sims and have a creator. Sure, these ideas I am open to, I am just not open to a flying spaghetti monster, and thinking about how weak minded people have to grasp to such concepts causes me to act evil towards them at times.
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I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.

Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #11 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 04:27:09 PM

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Something I know you're not understanding about my point on dinosaurs. Some evolved. While others didn't based on their ecosystems. We see birds, yes, those are dinosaurs. But it's not like we can say all dinosaurs evolved into birds. The ones who were living amoung humans must have died off or had their evolution delayed due to what was required for them to live on in their ecosystem. To say all dinosaurs became birds over the same time span and rate as time went on is like saying we aren't living among apes because they evolved into us. We still see great apes. There's a reason for that. When a species evolves, it's relative to what it needs to survive better.

Apes are not humans. Birds are not dinosaurs. They are completely different species with entirely different genetic code and genetic compatibilities.while we came from apes, they aren't the same thing. Likewise for birds and dinosaurs. Try raping a gorrilla or mating a bird with pleasiosaur. It won't happen. It doesn't mean all apes are going to become like us. Apes of today may take a completely different route due to their circumstance. They might even die off.

I don't know why all these people can justify ignoring we made a minor mistake in our our observations. We lived with dinosaurs.  It isn't a creationist's scam and it doesn't disprove our views at all.

You're right and also wrong:

Yes not all the Dinosaurs evolved into birds, some went extinct, and of the ones that did evolve not all of them did at the same pace hence the claws of the ostrich and the Kiwi, the penguins flying on water, the eagle hunting from above while the vulture eats carrion, hence all the different genus among birds.

No never did humans live among the huge beast that are the birds ancestors, many millions of years separate their extinction and the evolution of the comon ancestor of all great apes (Gorilla, Chimp, Bonobo, Orangutan, Human).

"Sixty-five million years ago the last of the non-avian dinosaurs went extinct. So too did the giant mosasaurs and plesiosaurs in the seas and the pterosaurs in the skies. Plankton, the base of the ocean food chain, took a hard hit. Many families of brachiopods and sea sponges disappeared. The remaining hard-shelled ammonites vanished. Shark diversity shriveled. Most vegetation withered. In all, more than half of the world's species were obliterated." http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/prehistoric-world/dinosaur-extinction/

"The most recent common ancestor of the Hominidae lived roughly 14 million years ago,[3] when the ancestors of the orangutans speciated from the ancestors of the other three genera.[4] The ancestors of the Hominidae family had already speciated from those of the Hylobatidae family, perhaps 15 million to 20 million years ago.[4]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae

So no never did humans encounter, breed pet, mount a Dinosaur (unles you count their avian descendants).

Also the genetic difference betwen a chimp and a human is much less than what you think, we share about 96% of our genetic code with them, that is our genoma and theirs is 96% identical with only a 4% defference between our species.

We do not come from apes, we are apes, the other great apes and the humans share a common ancestor, this is why you'll never see a chimp evolve into a human, they are evolving but will never be humans since it would be a really great coincidence that two different species evolved into the same thing.

Birds are dinosaurs, yet you could not interbreed them with their avian dinosaur ancestor (there were other non-avian dinosaurs and plesiosaurs were not dinosaurs [I think]) the genetic drift among them is to big for them to produce ofspring.

I think the same holds true for the other great apes and us, yet take the Dogs and the wolfs and coyotes, since their common ancestor is not too far in the past, they can still breed among them and produce fertile and viable offspring.

Apes are not humans true, Humans are Apes, since you can't outgrow from your ancestry.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 04:42:03 PM by edsquare » Logged
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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #12 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 04:28:07 PM

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@edsquare - So I'm not alone in this "acting christian" circus. It's good to know.

@Robert - All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Ruler of worlds! The one nicknamed Jesus Fuck!
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Offline (Male) edsquare
Reply #13 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 04:36:34 PM

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@edsquare - So I'm not alone in this "acting christian" circus. It's good to know.

@Robert - All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Ruler of worlds! The one nicknamed Jesus Fuck!

No you're not alone even in your county/state/country, search the web for atheist support groups you can find like minded people to talk to befriend and build a support group before comming out (If you decide to do it) since you could really loose friends and family.
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Offline (Male) time-killer-games
Reply #14 Posted on: July 11, 2014, 04:47:03 PM

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Thanks edsqaure. I don't want to discuss this for so long as I'm already getting a head ache, last thing I'd like to say about evolution then we can all go back to discussing holes in religion if you'd rather, as there's a lot more we'll agree on.

I won't dismiss the possibility that not all dinosaurs died off or evolved before we came along. At the time being we have no way to know that for certain. I doubt evolutionists would make a hoax of dinosaurs living with us, what would that accomplish?

So you know, our flesh and body chemistry is a lot closer to pigs and rodents than apes. We have a much more similar siloette to the apes. But that's not enough to say we're 95-ish percent close to them in the evolving cycle. We are much more different that you think. Compare the intellectual copacity of apes that can use sticks to catch bugs and then look at a human mind that can build and program an entire supercomputer from scratch. There's no comparison. We may look similar but our relation in the development in our brain is what most of all brings me to conclude we transitioned from being apes over a much longer timespan than what a good number of scientists would agree on.

Plesiosaurs aren't dinos I know, that didn't come to mind when I was posting that but I still made my suggested point.
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