No way was I pointing the finger at Robert (or anyone in particular, for that matter). Just an every day style example or what I was trying to get at.

Exactly same situation as you, I was not pointing at nobody in particular and yet get lashed at ...  This happens a lot on forums lonewolff.

and I think more and more as this topic advances proves the OP's point further and why some restructuring and moderation might not be a bad thing.
Every community be it from a open sourced project, free project, hobby or whatever, should have some rules, for everybody's best interest.

When I joined here there was hostility,
flaming, 1 or 2 users insulting and flaming / breaking down every post people made, it was NOT attractive or welcoming in my opinion. 

but I decided to stay because I liked the program.  But I'm sure a lot of people would not.  I don't know why some people feel targeted, when it is clear we are talking in the general sense about things that are not tolerated normally on ANY forum/community.

If one adopts the anything goes anything can be said attitude, that only opens doors to situations like these and some observed in the past.

Nobody said anything about firing or banning anybody nobody was pointing a finger at Robert, or anybody. Lonewolff, I guess moderation or not, you have to be very careful voicing your opinions around here. (or anywhere) Some forums are obviously over moderated and ban people on ridiculous things (you just proved a good example there with the avatar thing )  does not mean this place has to be like that...

Friendly community ay ? lol !    But it is a learning experience because eventually you learn that you should avoid certain topics and stick to the official forums ....

You will always clash with people on a forum no matter what.

That said, anybody who joins here and points a finger at any user in particular, or notices the negativity, then do this........since it is easy to judge the bad first and good last.....do a search on that particular user, all his posts and see how much this user has contributed positive and constructive topics/posts vs. the nonconstructive ones.  Freedom goes a long way, but if it were up to me running this place, open source or not hobby or not, I would not allow racism, homophobia, personal attacks, excessive flaming, and ANYTHING that creates a hostile environment.

As to Robert it is clear that he has contributed more good to this project than anything else, and we all derail from time to time and get carried away, but what sets the difference is that some people can quickly go back on track, that separates the good user from the really bad user who is ALL about flaming, disturbing, attacking, like this place had before, and those users have not been active....it is THAT category of users that don't give a good image to a community, not the occasional side tracking, cussing, fooling around....... I think one should be able to make a distinction.

To me ANY topic would be accepted, anything goes, in their respective forums, but crossing the line into personal territory (threats against others, attacking their person, their family, character, spreading lies, etc.I would not tolerate that !) there is a difference between disagreeing with someone and attacking their person and being downright mean to everyone.  I guess different people have different opinions on how a community should be like........

It doesn't fucking matter if a site is run by a corporation or hobbyists,they are the same human beings behind the screens...it all comes down to common sense in the end.  Wanting a friendly community, civil, professional, is that such a bad thing or is it perceived as anarchist, tyranny, etc.....So if ANYTHING goes then this means that the users attacked have a right to derail and defend themselves, it goes both ways.

LOL @ Lonewolff poor guy, first it's code stealing, now avatar stealing...... (evil grin !)      Yes how DARE you use someone elses avatar, 

(I'm kidding BTW), nice prank you pulled there, what a bunch of stuck up lads they are, they should look up the term "impersonating" someone.  and as far as I can tell Nocturne is not the copyright holder of the image is he ? So you didn't break any rules, nor was it your intentions to impersonate someone.

LOL.....you see, there is still some drama there too.   Guess you gotta be very careful now what you do and say on a forum, you may have the best of intentions but there will be some people who will crucify you !  And should they really decide to ban you there, honestly you are not missing much.  Nothing prevents anybody from creating fan GM forums or fan ENIGMA forums.

LOL @ your comment though, if people could not tell the difference between you and nocturne or do not read who is sending the message then they should get their bloody eyes checked or not bother on a forum.  Also considering that the mods and admins have their names in different  colours should be more than obvious.  So yeah now's not the time to be on their S list lonewolff,

@Darkstar2:

Race, gender, sexual orientation, disabilities are not the same as religión and I resent your remark about we insulting you on this regard,

For someone going to University and is quite smart, I am shocked about what I read, you are way smarter than that......but your post to me strikes me as ignorant ! but where the bloody hell did I mention that I was insulted in that regard ? Please quote me and I will correct myself. I was in no way insinuating anything, and was not referring to me at all, nor did I mention YOU or being insulted.  Sorry but you took it all wrong.

I was talking in the general sense, insults, flaming......I WAS NOT FUCKING TALKING ABOUT ME!!! I was referring to stuff I was reading when I first joined!
Nobody insulted me or my views on the topic. what we discussed is passed and finished and we moved on......you completely twisted what I said and ASSUMED.......Sad. and if I was giving examples, I certainly was not talking about you.....

There are ways to disagree with someone's point of view, and have a civil discussion - that is a general sense nothing to do with any past flames between us.

neither I or anyone else EVER insulted you, because you are a fellow human and deserve respect, but your ideas and beliefs are not granted that same respect automatically.

I know that, you just started something that is unnecessary. Where is the problem?

Now if you think that by not respecting your ideas and/or beliefs someone is insulting you then the onus is on you and you alone; if ideas deserved respect shouldn't we respect the homofobe? and what about the racist? or the sexist? What about the bully that drives a homosexual

I don't give a pile of crap if people don't respect my views, the point I was making is that insulting one's religion, attacking one's personal character, slander, defamation, ethnicity/race, hate, etc, are amongst the many things that DO NOT belong on a forum, leave me and our past out of this, I am just responding to the discussion the OP started. Has NOTHING to do with me or our disagreements.

if we are to come across as a friendly and helpful community......there are many other places where these things should be done and said.

kid to suicide? shouldn't we respect his ideas and beliefs too?

That's another story.  It is one thing to discuss someone's beliefs, it is another to say things that could be hurtful to others.
Again in the general sense.....

Racism, hate, homophobia, attacks, slander, constant trolling, flaming,  I don't think this kind of horse manure belongs on this community.  When I joined, this is most of what I saw.......between certain people not here anymore.

1st amendment or freedom of expression or whatever, protects your freedom to express, even if it offends, but does not shield you from consequences of your words.  The whole topic is about how to make this place attractive and welcoming...

if you think that adopting the "anything can go" "anything can be said" attitude,
That is YOUR opinion.......we can all disagree, but don't put words in my goddamned mouth.

We would NEVER be able to have this kind of discussion on the GMC and majority of other forums, including open projects.

I believe keeping the fights and hate where the fuck it belongs, NOT HERE.
I am saying is as part of the discussion, not implying you, our past, our discussions or anything........

You took what I said completely out of context.  I have long even forgotten about that other topic, until you brought it up again.

You even admitted to me in PM and on public forum that you agreed these type of discussions should not be discussed and the reasons why.......

Peace.

But fear not, you can slander me on PM or in public all you want I wont respond to any post by you anymore.

Read and digest what was written once again, don't try to get in the middle of something that had nothing to do with you OR our discussions or anybody else.

PS: To the rest of the community.- The reason religion, politics, and some other stuff is usually prohibited as a topic in most forums is because it can quickly degenerate in a flame war, not because it infringes any law.

I never implied otherwise, but slander, defamatory remarks, attack to one's character/integrity, false accusations, the rest, is another story, hate, racism, and the rest, some countries have laws, including the UK.....if you want to keep a forum friendly and welcoming, which has potential for getting people from many countries, you have to apply common sense.  I don't mind debating with you anytime, but shit should not be done here, even less from public view......Some people say I should not even feed the trolls or bother responding, but won't stay quiet and not defend against this crap.
lonewolff can handle this far better lol!

I too agreed with you that religion and some hot topics are best not discussed because it can degenerate, so what's the point of this ?  It degenerates because of people like you.....otherwise had no problem discussing this with anybody else, I do it all the time offline, and I get along with everyone discussing these issues.

Cheers

Feel free to discuss ENIGMA or anything else with me......but I won't be discussing any hot topics or anything outside the realm of technology, enigma, etc, I can take the heat, but personal attacks, I will defend against.

or I will discuss with people with open mind !  I do apologise for ever discussing this with you as I see now why it was a problem and the trauma you went through, you should have just stayed the fuck out of the conversation or told me to stop discussing it with you I would have respected it..........
Sad

Josh earned a high level of respect with this post......Right on the money.
People often get judged for the bad things always, but never the good things, and especially when the good overpowers the bad.  Strong defender of freedom of expression.  This reminds me of people constantly complaining about others, people for example complaining of Howard Stern, yet they never miss a single show.....people complaining of a TV show yet never miss an episode....People complaining of a talk show host yet is a loyal viewer........whatever is done on the forum will never please anybody.

However, despite me agreeing with you Josh, I do think moderation has its place on a public forum, and here is how:

I think any kind of slander, defamatory remarks, attack to a person's character, integrity, any type of topics that could be liability for the site owners or anybody on the forum should be moderated.  Any attack to a person's race, religion, character, etc, has no place in such a community.....neither does it has its place in the source code !  Freedom of speech is one thing, and your constitution protects that freedom, BUT no constitution protects you from consequences of your words and acts.

I'm sure we can all have fun and let loose as a community and occasional derail but get quickly back on track, but certain things cross the line, the N word for example, or anything that could be deemed offensive for any prospects.  Imagine a skilled contributor joining and seeing the N word used in the source code and forum..........Certain VERY inappropriate shit was posted here that I don't even dare repeat textually in relation to a religion and *** chambers, etc, I think that topic was deleted by its author and that is a perfect example and BIG NO NO for any forum, and such comments could even warrant a site getting shut  down and authors prosecuted in some cases.

Moderation is good in such extreme cases, otherwise for anything else I am a strong supporter of free speech.  Certain people can be wrong and misinformation might come out of it, not everyone means it, that's why there are CIVIL ways to correct one another.  Cheers.

And about Robert, spot on !

I'm not going to issue warns for "GayMaker: Stupido" any faster than I will for "Internet Exploder" or "Micro$oft," and the same goes for any names you can come up with for "ENIGMA." Actually, some people were already calling it "enigger" in the past, which was inspired by a particularly rude member who, fortunately for the rest of the community, only directed his rage at ENIGMA, me, and other contributors.

Ah yes does this user have a common dairy food product in his name ? LOL!

The words reflect poorly on their speakers. It isn't my job nor my place to delete things others say where they are lawful in doing so. I prefer to point out my thoughts on their behavior.

Agree only to some extent, there are 2 types of users, those who occasionally derail and are good contributors both by code or thought or discussion, and then you have the trouble maker who joins only to flame others, insult, degrade, and is CLEAR and OBVIOUS shows no interest in your project or civil discussion, they are 100% trouble 0% worthy, do you really want that in your community as a site admin ?  Luckily here those concerned left, but  I stink as an admin it is your job to step in when things get extremely out of control to moderate, without necessarily censoring or banning but in certain situations say ENOUGH !  Of course you might claim otherwise that this is open forum open source, you are not a company ,etc....... It's a tough topic, and free speech is good but certain things definitely don't belong and cannot be good for your image, the site, the product, etc.  I'm not talking about the occasional cussing or derailments

If there is something in particular you would like me to address, feel free to let me know. As stated, I don't issue bans for opinions.

When I joined this forum I recall some very heated very immature rants and fights between some developers, it was a major turn off.....what kept me here is my open mind and interest to the project and my disgust with the other side
Also clearly remember 1 or 2 individual who were on a clear rampage of insulting and degrading just about EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING.......there is a LIMIT as to what should be tolerated in my opinion.
These were posts INSIDE official forums.
Freedom of speech is good, it should belong in their own respective forums, closed and locked from view......but
insults, flames, fights, as I and many have read when joined INSIDE official forums does not send a good image.  Again, luckily things have calmed down quite a bit, and I know the users you are referring to.

In defense of Robert, the only thing I see Robert doing wrong (even if you'd call it that), would be the colourful adjectives he might use occasionally.

I see nothing wrong with emotions enhancing adjectives it's all in how it's used and how frequently. People should be judged by what they contribute, their knowledge, their behavior OVERALL - even a non code contributor, their conduct and interest, participation on the forum.  Actions speak louder than words.  Obviously here are certain words you want to avoid on a forum, such as derogatory / slander, personal/religion/race/ethnicity type of discussions   This is not broadcast television and the community is not bound by FCC   I think the forum needs a good disclaimer, and closed forum areas and you have all these concerns resolved.

I haven't really seen Robert do anything that would bring ENIGMA in to disreputre. I'd am pretty confident I speak for everyone when I say that Robert has gone well above and beyond anyone on this forum.

Agreed, it is one thing to use an occasional SW when it is in context, and as long as you are not going into personal attacks territory.

I have been away for 9 months, I come back and he is still chipping away like a Trojan.

Your timing was good actually he was busy for a while with his studies, and still was doing stuff whenever he could.....
but since you left there have been many good changes by sorlok and ego, make sure you are up to date on the latest portable and plugins

As much as I am beginning to love TKG

lol !

as well (the crazy bastard that he is ), I just don't feel posts like this even belong on the forum http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=2217.msg22014#new

Just because something is 'non-profit' and completely controlled by volunteers, doesn't mean it can be professional.

People online say things ..... there have been topics opened by devs there....is it harmful ? no.  Weird ? yes.  But that's what closed forums are for, these kind of forums definitely should not be public view.  What should be public view are strictly the ENIGMA and anything ENIGMA / programming help related, along with a General Forum, work in progress, and finished games area, and other.
I do agree that these kind of topics and posts should not be public view, they might give a very wrong impression on the person writing it, and you can't blame people.  as sometimes even the most professional contributor or member might be tempted to reply to these topics and derail, including myself

I received your PM and replied to it, I agree with you 100% and BUT read my reply carefully,   the biggest obstacle is the license and the fact ENIGMA is OS. 
Cheers

Yes rodney we don't enable all functions by default because it helps to seriously reduce the executable size of games by ripping out the functions they do not need.

Pretty cool way of handling things

Very cool indeed I really like this about ENIGMA.  The smallest file I was able to make with ENIGMA was 320K in size, rared.

[4 MB]

Spot on, this is why I agree with lonewolff 100% on this one. 

So are you going to ask your users to start installing dependencies and making sure they have the necessary libs to run your game ?  Perhaps a poll asking what people prefer, a single EXE or dependencies/requirements and a mess.

I guess it's obvious what most people using these tools would use.

I certainly prefer single exe all the way. But, if you ask 'those who shalt not be referenced' (ok, YYG ). The say the former option, pack all of the dependencies in to a big ass installer package.

I 'had it out' with them about this a long time ago, because they pack d3dx9_43.dll with the compiled app but not xinput1_3.dll so gamepad support breaks when you don't have all DX runtimes installed.

So, with your 4 MB game you should 'supposedly' include no less than 100 MB worth of supporting files.

100 MB DX redists, VC2008 redist, oh and you are using a poorly written extension that was built in VC2010 and dynamic links as well? - better add those redists too then. 

Stuff that. Single executable all the way thanks

I had a nice 25 page reply but then I asked myself.......

...... do I even care about what a person with a "resident troll badge" has to say ? lol.

For starters Rusky why don't you set the example before talking about others, you are the LAST person here who should even have an OPINION on this matter.
Seems every topic you are part of turns to crap


We all make mistakes in our assumptions, we are all human and that's why people who know better correct others, in a civil and polite way without being arrogant arseholes, and sorry to say but certain people here which I won't name have not always been civil and kind or good examples, and yes you are amongst them too in fact top position there matey, based on those who are still active members

EVERYONE can be considered guilty of the bashing or sometimes going over the top,
but as far as I'M bloody concerned as far as my take on GM, I am a PAID customer, long loyal customer and my rants and bashes are warranted and genuine. As far as other "mis-informations" well feel free to correct them, that's what a community is for   When I came here I knew far less about certain things than I do now, mainly C++, so yeah I've been wrong about certain things and I asked questions about certain terms and what not and got corrected......There is a difference between being genuinely interested and purposely spreading lies and shit which I don't do and sorry but I will strongly defend this.

The problem here is NOT the bashing or
misinformation it's the sometimes rude attitude and very uncivil, hostile tension between developers, members, etc.  That is a major turn-off......Not the occasional cussing..... But that was past, I just finished saying to lonewolff that this place is much more peaceful and tame.......was I wrong ? did I speak too soon ?

If you want more pages let me know - it's FREE on weekdays !

Speechless......

The video one is amazing, opens lots of doors for highly interactive game developing.

As to the other stuff, impressive I can only imagine the type of games you'd make, would put to shame a lot of current game developers......When I see some of the stuff winning competition and potential you have, you could easily make the top.
though actually making full games is the harder part as TIME is required.

ENIGMA should keep its head held high

Just to specify, the actual head between the shoulders and for good reasons Carry on !

and not even have any mention of YYG or GM:S on the forum - at all.

Think 'GM:S doesn't exist'.

That's very difficult mate, considering ENIGMA is an augmentation of the very product - GAME MAKER......So as long as there is a tie and discussion about how GMS does this and what we should do it's very hard to completely forget and discard conversations about GMS......I see nothing wrong with it, providing it stays civil, and no attacking an individual but only ideas and facts....We are not in a communist state

Just think of us all as the hill-billy inbred miss-fit family. We all spaz out from time to time. LOL 

LMAO -  Quote of the day, thanks that made my day.

@time-killer-games - I think you've forgotten to take your med's again. I am not having an attack on you at all. Why would I by lying about your extension. It does still have a couple of bugs in it. You just don't know how to test for them obviously.

BTW, can someone re-edit / remove their reviews in market place, I wasn't aware this was allowed in any site where you review something.  I guess the fair thing to do would be to modify the review reflecting the fixed / bugs / changed stuff.

@Darkstar2 - Yes, no software is ever 100% bug free. But, It should go out the door with no known bugs. So, I guess the wording should have been 'percieved 100% bug free'

Exactly, that's the point I was making, weeding out the obvious bugs which a 10 year old can spot, blind folded

There are so many software with easy bugs, I have tested and reported many, I've been in internal testing teams for graphic cards company and it is RIDICULOUS the stuff I would discover, and the stuff the team would discover.

SADLY despite all the attempts to weed this out, when releasing some software or hardware things get eventually found, even the "how could I have missed that" type of bugs, what you want to avoid as much as possible   For those FREE extensions it would be wiser to have them properly tested offline, either alone or with the help of others BEFORE releasing them on the market, as anything released to public is subject to scrutiny and critics, so long as the criticism is warranted and factual, and helpful to the developer of the extension.

and all is needed now is extensions to re-enable all the deprecated crap YYG removed, remove sand box limitation and other r*****ed poo they imposed people, to make it an attractive engine for windows developers wanting to raise the bar in game making, mind you YYG did something great with the IDE where you don't have to pre-load all assets when run.......this is probably one of the best decisions they made lol, but anyhow, better late than never.

So are you going to ask your users to start installing dependencies and making sure they have the necessary libs to run your game ?  Perhaps a poll asking what people prefer, a single EXE or dependencies/requirements and a mess.

I guess it's obvious what most people using these tools would use.

The only way we can track who is an actual contributor is by using the headers. So we could just crawl them and make a list of who contributed. If someone in that list is no longer a contributor and can't be got hold of, then we could rewrite the necessary parts. Sadly a lot of the code has been rewritten numerous times, yet people in those headers remained. So it's possible that the person didn't have anything to do with the new code.
So what I am saying is that it could be hard to understand who is a contributor and who isn't. What is the practice in this regard?

A good example of this is the recent  contributors to LGM, they have not put their name in the (c), I also have not seen new names in the headers. But you're right, this whole thing is a mess and hard to track proving exactly my point Harri