Perhaps we could get some feedback from any newer people here, what were the impressions you got when you first came here and initially ran ENIGMA and started to use it? What are the problems you most frequently run into with ENIGMA?
Quote from: polygone on February 15, 2015, 11:15:59 AM
Perhaps we could get some feedback from any newer people here, what were the impressions you got when you first came here and initially ran ENIGMA and started to use it? What are the problems you most frequently run into with ENIGMA?
I will speak for me, MIXED.
I was lured because of the GM familiarity, the IDE was familiar and much of the functions, and the actually compiled nature as opposed to runner based. The bad impression at the time I joined there were strong heated discussions amongst developers and clearly had the vibe that people were not on the same page. As I kept working discovered things I wanted to do did NOT work properly in ENIGMA, and many set backs......But that was when I joined at the time, since then lots have changed, and the only thing that kept me here despite the mixed impression was my interest in learning and work around things.... so much has been fixed, unfortunately some things broke in the process, I guess that is to be expected with an open source project run by contributors, sometimes certain things get broken and the person who worked on something that broke something else has no more time to fix it etc.....
Which is why first impressions can be deceiving because there are many areas where ENIGMA has improved, though still has its share of problems ATM, but for people who like workarounds it's not too much of an issue......probably one thing that can set people back and give a bad impression is no general agreement on an official licence.....and the endless debates. Since it would be unfair to say BAD impression, I will say MIXED, since there is good and bad in my opinion, where I was concerned though. Having done preliminary tests with YYC I was pleased of the file size delivered by ENIGMA to be significantly smaller than the YYC. The smallest file I could get in ENIGMA is around 300k compressed, where in YYC even compressed over 1MB in size for an empty project.......the ability in ENIGMA to deselect modules you are not using, (extensions) is a big plus.
the ability to use EDL and C++ in the same project again a big plus - ability to use my own C++ functions inside my project, a big plus......I'd say at the moment my impressions would be more towards the good than bad.......most my gripes are with the lack of integration of some functions inside the IDE, which is present in GMS, and stability issues with the enigma.jar inside the IDE.
For someone hoping to do direct ports 100% without issues 100% of the time, might be disappointed. Someone expected 100% compatibility with GMS, and a carbon copy of the product, might be disappointed too.
For people who like workarounds and learn, they will eventually find that despite that, there are many advantages to using this over GMS, at least as far as windows development is concerned. GMS supports physics through its iDE, ENIGMA doesn't......only supports it for editing purposes but it is not functional. you have to code it yourself.....not an issue if you like coding and learning how it's done.
So at the time I joined my impression was mixed.
Quote from: Darkstar2 on February 15, 2015, 07:34:28 PM
so much has been fixed, unfortunately some things broke in the process, I guess that is to be expected with an open source project run by contributors, sometimes certain things get broken and the person who worked on something that broke something else has no more time to fix it etc.....
When ENIGMA gets a build bot, this will not be an issue anymore. A good build bot will do unit and integration tests for each commit and be able to build the .zip files automatically. In fact, most open source projects already use Travis CI.
Well im not a new user, but ill have you know that if it wasnt for the GM compatibility I'd find nothing about this project interesting enough to consider using it.
A bit LTTP, but the reason I originally chose to use ENIGMA was that it was easy (following the README) to get the source, run make, get LGM, and then open a game in the editor (in my case Iji). Compiling was harder, but I found it pretty easy to hack on.
For a project the size of LGM + ENIGMA, it's structured pretty well.
Quote from: time-killer-games on February 16, 2015, 07:38:34 AM
Well im not a new user, but ill have you know that if it wasnt for the GM compatibility I'd find nothing about this project interesting enough to consider using it.
Well you might have changed your mind if you had a unique and different product not compatible but with the same ease of use, that was more powerful and did even more than what you expect of it.
I guess people's minds will change soon - YYG announced officially the news and Playtech announced what they have in mind....This could all be rubbish talk but if what they say comes true, then ENIGMA will be really behind.....the only real valid reason people would continue using EGM is because it's FREE. GMS 2 is due this year, + other things as well, would be amazing if they add C++ ability alongside GML like ENIGMA, there are ways where GM can win people over, but then ENIGMA will always be FREE, so it might not completely die and lose its user base, however feature and stability wise, I guess it is to be expected that GM will shine. I admit I am skeptic as to GM's future as well, even with Playtec in the mix, I mean why the hell would a gambling company be interested in GMS - it's odd, and will they deliver or simply destroy the project will be seen, I guess maybe they will impress us all. But one thing that worries me from the start.......they mention they plan to stay aligned with YYG's visions...That's a big fucking no-no from the start......:D
I'm not new any more, but I just thought I'd give my opinion on the program, hopefully novice users may find it useful.
Enigma is literally the best game dev tool I have ever found, no joke. I was on Game Maker, but because I wanted versatility between Windows and Linux, I found it annoying that GM didn't run natively in Linux, and through wine it ran like crap. Enigma on the other hand, runs perfectly. While you may have some bugs setting it up due to various issues on windows (Spaces in file paths, forgetting to run as administrator, a corrupt installer, etc...) and on Linux (Distro-varying issues, for example jar mismatch, missing dependencies, etc...) it's easy to resolve. Some things are buggy or get confusing, like there's three settings menus, a build settings, a program settings and a game settings menu, this can make it confusing, however it at least keeps things organised (just takes a bit of getting used to)
Enigma is very powerful when in the right hands, even more so that GM.
Personally, I think the IDE, while looking like Game Maker intentionally, I personally find the IDE to feel cluttered, which is an issue with GM as well, I would like to see the ability to use NaturalGM as an IDE, but I'm not sure how that would work... I just want to see an IDE that is tab based, like Eclipse. A cool feature would be to have the ability to switch between the window-manager IDE and a tabbed IDE. I like how when I run it on Linux on GTK I get an interface like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/JcIGku1.png)
(Notice the 'task-bar' thing at the bottom? It behaves like tabs.)
TL/DR this is a lifesaving program making Game Maker obsolete (in my opinion)
EDIT:
Quote from: Darkstar2 on February 21, 2015, 07:01:02 PMENIGMA will be really behind.....the only real valid reason people would continue using EGM is because it's FREE. GMS 2 is due this year, + other things as well, would be amazing if they add C++ ability alongside GML like ENIGMA, there are ways where GM can win people over, but then ENIGMA will always be FREE, so it might not completely die and lose its user base, however feature and stability wise, I guess it is to be expected that GM will shine.
Actually, I was in a skype group and when that news was first announced they were going on about how it'll ruin GM, an how it won't succeed, etc... they threw a ton of negative comments at this... But that's because some people just can't handle change. I suggested moving to Enigma to them, guess what? They said they'd stick with original GMS... Some people. >.>
Well if PlayTec has the smarts they could easily win ENIGMA users over.
1) uncripple the windows side, that was raped and mangled by YYG, re-introduce back the functions that were deprecated for no reason other than laziness.
2) Optimise the bloody YYC! I've managed to make ENIGMA project sizes more than half the size of the same project in YYC! I really like how ENIGMA groups certain functions as "extensions" and allows you to exclude categories of functions you don't need, making the compiled file much smaller!
3) add native video support, add ability to add external sounds (sound_add) yes they do handle audio dynamically,but some people want the add function back!!!)
4) add C++ support alongside GML. Ability to mix GML and C++ in the same project would be great.
5) actually listen to the people who pay for their salaries, us users who buy their products :D
they have read over they years many complaints from users on their own community and here... now they have no more bloody excuses, they have the seed investment, they should get to work!
If they can do that they might win back some people.
Right now I plan on making my own dynamic resource handling/encryption/decryption engine in C++ and used alongside a project - I mean after all, YYC converts to C++ and compiles, so no reason not to offer C++/GML integration.
Mind you, they NEVER considered ENIGMA a threat anyway, and they are right lol.
BUT if they wanted maybe to start widening their market instead of their 0-9 year old demographic target, to target a wider group including advanced developers who want to make more than catch the fucking clown, burst the balloons and mario clones!
Cheers
lol i am very afraid of clowns especially that one. it tries to catch my attention all over the internet. i have nightmares waking me up at the buttcrack of dawn. its tragic. if they actually had good tutorials and sample projects shipped with their engine, ya know, like what i see Unity doing on their fb page im subribed to with lust but im dry of the same money i couldve invested on that on GMS instead. i was set up. wanted to make games googled generic game maker and boom im stuck with shit unil ive completed my investment in moving out of my parents house, got a job with a crazy badass pay i feel lucky and spoiled bc its a job help programming web content for someone at my familys church he nos im lazy and hes ritch paying me crapload of money to help me generously i think hes even losing money in this help me succeed in life its amazing. bad news im already hired but never actually started yet he wants me to learn json, flash, and php figures my least fav web language among the very few i have no interest in or experience with, been putting off the tuts so my savings still consist of 0 dollars and 0 cents when im 20 anxious to move out booked reading this shit that doesnt interest me nothing like c++ which i actually know how to code in for years now and actually consider useful. the motivation is wats making hard. ill be lucky to purchase a decent license of unity by the time im 50 due my priorities i hate my fucking family moving is my first concern so they dont give me the eviction notice they threaten daily over stupid shit like if i look at them funny even. american law is fucked up it supports my family kicking me out bc they hate me over things i cant help like disagreeing them on everything thing it doesn matter even if i honor and submit to their wish they think im psychotic bc i dare disagree with them bout anything. oh my im sorry i have the audacity of having brain forming unique views just like everyone else on the damn planet. excuse mom and dad i obey and respect u all the time godamn but but wat yu cant force me to is agree with wat u force me to do i do it anyway without complaining isnt tht good enough for crying out loud. u cant do this bc u dnt like me me and im a legal adult wat other reason is there. this is some serious bad juju. i blame game maker and where the fuck r my goddamn meds for shits sake
My first impression on Enigma by having a quick look at the documentation section in the wiki and viewing some screenshots was just "WoW!".
I'm running linux on my computer and apart from godotengine there is no other game engine I know of that comes with a level editor and a text editor with code completion.
Compiling was quite easy thanks to the nice tutorial but I encountered an issue when running LateralGM cause of a version conflict of JNA that I could solve by purging the already existing JNA lib.
I have never used game maker before (*cough* linux guy) so I was a little lost at first. There was this cool feature rich game engine but I could only find two small tutorials about how to create a simple game with it. After reading in the forum I found out that the IDE design is actually based on game maker. With this information I could find a heap to help online. ;D
I haven't done any serious projects with Enigma yet but my first impression is absolutely positive.
The only worry I have is related to the inactivity on development side -> no commits since end of 2014.
So from my point of view this things should be adressed:
- Fix the JNA issue as soon as possible. Not everyone is as patient as me. ;)
- Make clear that the IDE is built like game maker so noobs know where to look for tutorials and stuff.
- Create binary zips for linux or add at least a package / repo for debian (ubuntu, mint, etc) based distros which are the majority at the moment.
- Advertise Enigma. (Maybe create an official "Enigma-Dev" channel on youtube and post some videos (feature presentations / tutorials etc)) Sadly the engine is absolutely unknown at the moment even among us linux users that have few alternatives.
- Choose a license that allows for commercial publishing of games
Development has slowed a little. But there is some progress in some branches, like here: https://github.com/enigma-dev/enigma-dev/commits/GL3.3NormalMatrix
How many people are actually developing still or planning on developing again after some other commitment? Things seem rather dead on the forum and in the repo...
Quote from: time-killer-games on March 31, 2015, 09:48:49 AM
never actually started yet he wants me to learn json, flash, and php figures my least fav web language among the very few i have no interest in or experience with, been putting off the tuts so my savings still consist of 0 dollars and 0 cents when im 20 anxious to move out booked reading this shit that
Well I wish you the best of luck, I guess everything happens for a reason in life, I don't believe in coincidences :P A lot of unexpected stuff happens, I can relate to a lot of that. Seems you have gone through rough patches as well, I have too and going through a shitty FUCKING one myself, sometimes you plan stuff and things get derailed, I planned to do lots of projects with GMS, ENIGMA, C++, but things came to a halt, so yeah I guess maybe certain things are meant to be and others not.
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ill be lucky to purchase a decent license of unity by the time im 50 due my priorities i hate my fucking family moving is my first concern so they dont give me
I don't know your exact age, but I'm guessing you might be far from 50 :D so by that time Unity might be the equivalent of a C-64......:P I don't have much hope for the desktop PC industry, it will be taken over by shitty consoles and mobile or hand held !
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the evicion notice they threaten daily over stupid shit like if i look at them funny even. american law is fucked up it supports my family kicking me out bc they hate me over things i cant help like disagreeing them on
I don't know about specific laws, but unless you are a minor, if you are of legal age (adult) they can evict you. but there are weird laws indeed, you have kids suing parents, parents suing their children, etc...so yeah I guess anything is possible now.
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everything thing it doesn matter even if i honor and submit to their wish they think im psychotic bc i dare disagree with them bout anything. oh my im sorry i have the audacity of having brain forming unique views just like everyone else on the damn planet.
psychotic ? I've been called far worse lol. Yeah I guess people say shit when they are raging with anger and in intense disputes, I can write a book on this subject myself, I've said stuff and I've been called stuff :D
I guess we all are crazy in a way, some resentment, anger, hidden feelings tucked in sometimes comes out and explodes.
I'll develop again, at some point. I have other interests, at the moment (and an increasing number of them). Though I'll admit, there's something I'm hoping will come along that would rekindle my interest in the project.
I dont normally post long ass shit like this but pleass bear with me guys this is very fucking important!!
@Josh, ISM, ExDeus, Robert, DS2 and all the contributors here - love how you guys have been working on this game engine and ide for several to many years and your acting like now more than ever this project is dead and a pile of shit just about the exact same time were getting these new members telling you the oposite. As been said from them ill reiterate, "ENIGMA is why i find GameMaker:Studio obsolete" - notice that was said even with him knowing no mobile or console support yet, must mean he really fucking likes it!! Or what about "Im the only strictly linux user for the most part who uses this because while i find it much better than the very limited linux alternatives out there, no one else will feel the same way without knowing it exists" - advertise your awsome shit damnit!! You may think its a good idea to leave the GM compatibility, but face it most people who like this product is because of the GM project support. Even DS2 who tries to pretend otherwise, as he said he may or may not switch back to GMS, but if he did hed need to rewrite his projects from shit if it wasnt for the amazing level of compatibility it has now. Even people who have had no experience with or awareness of GM wouldnt use this right now if it wasnt for it being a GM clone. While we have doc'd stuff on our wiki, we'll NEVER be able to provide the level of insight the GMC and YYG themselves provide for their engine, as its been said ill repeat "I had no idea how to use this thing and couldnt do anything but set up LGM with the plugin and run an empty untouched project, but once i found out it was a game maker clone, the GMC gave me EVERYTHING i needed from top to bottom" - being honest, with the little motivation and interest in developing the project there is now, do you honestly think for a SECOND we'll ever have as big a help resource on our wiki that would EVER compare to whats on the GMC, not to mention the YYG wiki/helpdesk and help doc. Are you really saying if we became an independent product from GM wed magically get the motivation to do more work and be more a competitor to YYG any sooner? Im pretty sure for the reasons given, that would slow down our progress greatly for years to come and would ultimately kill the project. People like this shit for the GM compatibility no matter how much you as the devs dont agree. We need their documentation, helpdesk, GMC, their audience partially, etc on top of the idea if you really did make enigma its own shit that would be more work not less, not just for the technical help side of things as mentioned, but also the core engines code itself. Thats a lot more functions and features to write from scratch or base on what we already have but renamed and rewritten almost completely, AND somehow "do a better job than YYG" in addition? REALLY, now?? Youll magically find the strength to do it then with life getting in theway just as much i can garentee it, you wont be able to make money from the project anyway from how its licensed, you may be able to relisense with permission from every to enable closed souraced commercial games, but i can garentee youll never be able to sell the engine with it open source whether whole or in part, and not every contributor wil approve of the idea of making it closed source so thats your fault for going GPL as a 16 yo Josh no offense and sticking with it all the way till now that your arent a minor and have a real legal voice, very late for that now. Money might motivate, as your only hope of more motivation, you still cant help life getting in the way of all the people developing this, and dont forget you arent exactly set up for an ideal future as far as making money on this project due to its self destructive licensing. I say dont pursue selling it, and just as much please do keep the GM compatibility. It isnt dead just yet but dont set yourself up to kill it off completely and that what these things would do exactly.
@Just at DS2 - you do realise DLL extension while are very messy are just as effective roughly as adding your own source code to anything that is open source even though GMS isnt? An example of this you cant do anything about what built in,the game file sizes are bigger than enigma's but its stil very damn small no one fucking cares bc whether you use ENIGMA or GMS the only real filesize concern that can REALLY increase your filesise in a way that actually matters is not the base engine but the many images, especiall if HD, and the many sounds, espcially if its an actually goooood game that uses more than one stupid repetative soundtrack, ie They Need To Be Fed and eveything else that sceams YYG or typical mobile shit you wont see on any quality console except OUYA and the likes. Even XB1 and PS4 ndies know how to be more talented than that shit. Again, even pixel art games, like 16-bit obvs, that filesize can really fucking grow if the game is of an acceptable commercial length and quality, and that will require a TON of varying images and visuals, ultimately could turn stuff into the GBs pretty fast as far as media, where as look at the core runner, the only thing to worry about there is like but a couple MB not even? Who fucking gives arip? The runner code is always the same size with every game YYC or not and the rest is simply your media and raw text "settings" appended to it. Notice every GMS exe is the same size, the data.win in that directory and the external audio is the only difference youl see in that folder, all the YYC does is replace th interpreted code with native and appending that data.win file within the executable binary itself insead of an external file. Its the same thing across platforms. Androd for instance the data.win file for windows looks exactly like the game.droid file in your android apks asset subfolder. Its the same exact file if you compile the same project, except for varying platforms with the project untouched. The game.droid equivalent for data.win is the same exact filesize, copile for android, extract the game.droid, rename it data.win and put in in the default runner.exes directory. Itll run the same exact game using that file as though using the original data.win. also dont act like GMS cant do videos, it can and much better than enigma, not with lonewolffs shitty windows only hogwash, thats as worthless in my book as what enigma has, while it has more functionality, windows is the dumest shit ever to support exclusively with no other platforms in mind bc every game engine on earth nearly supports windows for crying out loud. This is why im planning to port my extensions to Linux and Android as well as mac ehen i finally get one. Other than that i know how to program android and linux extensions i got a new LG android phone (so much better than my shitty old as hell samsung that broke) and i have a second machine running ubuntu and im considering a dual boot for my windows machine. I alreaday have everything i need to support 3 very important platforms, one enigma doesnt have, i just need the time for it which ill have startig in 3 months thanks to summer. Get this, GMS supports Windows, Mac, Linux, and Android for Video playback thanks to two well updated extensions on the marketplace. ;) everything that GM made obsolete one way or another can be just as easily added back with extensions just as ENIGMA did by being open source. Thats exactly what nearly all my extensions are doing. ;)
@DS2 and lonewol-double-"f"-for-double-the-fuck - Here's the video player extensions i was talking about, the desktop ones should all work in ENIGMA too. Im actualy glad someone beat me to it in making a video player in this case, they did it right, saves me of a lot of trouble, it isnt free, eh, why should i care, at least the price is worth it knowing that platforms in mind. Lol yeah lonewolff im still talking about you but its not a personal attack its just the truth you act like in your MP profile you know tons of languages, when either you only know C++ and or windows only stuff like Visual Basic as your personal website ("win32developer") and everythig else your online content suggests, you really like programming for windows exclusively and id consider that nearly useless in todays crossplatform market standards. :p why do you program again?? Seriously man your a mystery i seriously dont get the lack of appeal. Lonewolff please cry on the GMC they arent letting me back anyway as i just checked again nothings changed in their view since day one of my ban. Dont forget gamejolt, im leaving there as soon as they add the disable rating and comments feature their planning, once thats done ill be using the site merely as file sharing system like dropbox and nothing more as the community ive ben avoiding for a while now. :p
Windows, Mac, and Linux (FFMPEG based, cant beat that!) (one crossplatform extension, an extension done right)
https://marketplace.yoyogames.com/assets/1524/cttvideoplayer
Android (Android API based, still MUCH better than windows only shit!)
https://marketplace.yoyogames.com/assets/1406/videoplay-android
I think the problem has become that ENIGMA is more a branch off Game Maker from 10 years ago at GM6. Now GM has been moving on in an increasingly different direction and functionality to those days and it's user base along with it (no matter if this direction has made the product worse or not). Technology is also ever increasingly shifting to mobile platforms which ENIGMA is yet to dwelve into.
Thus ENIGMA will become less and less appealing to a younger user base over time so as ENIGMA's existing dev base becomes older and more of them move on into other things (which is a natural progression) there will not be a sustainable amount of new devs coming here to fill in the void of these losses.
^If the project becomes desperate enough that without my help itd be more likely die id love join in if that meant i wouldnt be the only new dev and if i could actually have assurance for "tomorrow" my efforts wouldnt be a total waste and itd die quickly regardless, thus why i havent actually contributed yet im waiting to see if it can get the slightest hint of a brighter future on its own by the existing or future devs for it before im willing to take a risk like that by getting my hands dirty. If anyone is willing to make a such risk i can tell you right now its not me.
If you only contribute if something has a "bright future" then you are bandwagoning, not helping. The whole point of helping open source projects is to create this bright future. It's on the users as much as it is on the devs to do this. But the things is - nothing has changed, the devs that always worked on (and still work on) ENIGMA view this as a learning experience and hobby. We do support anyone who wants to come here, be a full-time developer just so the project can be more successful. Then they can even come up with ways to commercialize this (like create commercial games while at the same time developing ENIGMA). I'm using ENIGMA daily and nothing will change in this regard - I develop stuff I need for it, fix bugs I encounter and so on. For example, it's possible that in a few months ENIGMA's software will work on a commercial robotics platform.
I never said you werent appreciate in fact i appreciate you the most right now harri as you are the only still working on it. (Y) but you cant do it by yourself no one can i wish robert and josh come back especially idk what happened to sorlok but he a great help like you too. Thank you for stayingwith us. I know other than rober they are prob just on a break or busy but still
Also you misread me. A bright future and a hint or at least visible chance of a future at all isnt the same thing and the later is what id like to see which isnt a high standard. The problem isnt the project or its current feature/stability state, as ive stated its the lack of attention its getting from developers due care and time restraints, and the lack of attention from the game devs themselves looking for tools like this, simply bc they cant find enigma due the word isnt getting out in the right places. Ive seen robert sharing on commercial game engine sites which is a big no-no look how many of his topics got locked on sites like that...
Quote from: time-killer-games on April 03, 2015, 06:03:41 PM
I dont normally post long ass shit like this but pleass bear with me guys this is very fucking important!!
LOL and they said my posts were long you probably beat my record mate ;D ;D ;D but don't worry luckily my speed reading skills will come in handy.
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@Josh, ISM, ExDeus, Robert, DS2 and all the contributors here - love how you guys have been working on this game engine and ide for several to many years and your acting like now more than ever this project is dead and a pile of shit just about the exact same time were getting these new members telling you the oposite.
Dead might be a big word, it's stagnant, maybe it's time to face reality :D A piece of shit, now that is a big word, I would disagree. Unfortunately some of the last contributions to the project were excellent but broke many things in the process. The problem with this project is that those that have made big contributions in the past managed to break a lot of things in the process, then they left and didn't continue, leaving new contributors picking up the pieces, I think this might discourage some people to contribute. Is ENIGMA shit ? Not quite, EGM is now broken, (the format) among other things, but if you know enough C++ you can fix them OR you can find work arounds. Just the other day I used ENIGMA to make an app, I almost fucking punched a bloody hole in the wall !!! I think the biggest problem is with IDE and the enigma.jar stability, but I found some work around and managed to get my work done. Though this type of thing might not be attractive to most people who want a polished, finished project, but little do they know all the flaws of GMS, but to be honest, GM has gone a long way and improved. But despite the pain in the arsehole that represents ENIGMA at times, I still use it, because unfortunatly GMS does not allow me to plug my own C++ functions, whereas ENIGMA allows me to fully modify the source. I have some interesting plans to add encryption/decryption/resource handling etc to my own projects and modifying some of the functions for my use, can you do that shit with GMS ? No, so ENIGMA has its use still, unfortunately I am not yet at an advanced level in order to contribute to ENIGMA as much as Robert and other, though if I could I would have changed quite a lot of things in ENIGMA......First thing I would have loved to tackle is the IDE, but I don't know fuck all about JAVA !
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damnit!! You may think its a good idea to leave the GM compatibility, but face it most people who like this product is because of the GM project support. Even DS2 who tries to pretend otherwise, as he said he may or may not switch back to GMS, but if he did hed need to rewrite his projects from shit if it wasnt for the amazing level of compatibility it has now.
Ok, the reason I am working in ENIGMA is not because of GM compatibility, I could give a shit less about GM, the reason I came to ENIGMA initially was because of the major blow YYG gave us with their YYC and the near extortionate price tag :D Also because YYG deprecated some windows functions, so I found at the time ENIGMA more attractive to windows because it was COMPILED and at the same time fully modifiable! When I start a project inENIGMA you can be damn sure that none of them would be GM compatible because most of my enigma projects have EDL and C++, non of which is supported by GM. I have no problem re-writing projects mate, if you saw the speed at which I type you'd understand lol. The reason I may go back to using GMS is all dependent on its future....if they brought back some of the deprecated commands, optimised their YYC shit compiler, reduced file sizes, allowed C++ into the projects and made significant modifications, yes I might use GMS, they have made lots of improvements to their IDE and stability is far greater.
In the end it all comes down to what can get the job done. Of course I will keep using ENIGMA so long as I am able to do what I want with it...... I honestly don,t think YYG/PT is going to make that much changes - in fact they are moving more towards mobile/console dev and unification of their product, this will fuck windows users in the arse because we have paid a big price over this whole retarded unification rubbish ! So given I am open minded I will wait to see what Playtec has to offer. Until now, my using ENIGMA has never been about money, it's been about being able to do stuff I could not do with GMS.... one thing, the IDE in GMS is far more rock solid and stable. enigma.jar seems to crash very regularly, the longer you work in LGM and save projects, run, save, the more eventually you will get crashes.....I don't get that in GMS......so if one day I decide to fuck off and use GMS it will be 1) better stability 2) features I don't have in ENIGMA....... who knows, maybe GMS 2 will be the right version after all this motherfucking years wait, but maybe I should not get my hopes up yet until I see concrete.
Not ready to give up on ENIGMA yet.
But apparently some people already did ..... where is our friend Wolf, he claimed he was going to make a game engine by new year, he was fucking with us all along yeah ? I knew something was odd about his claims, as I have not heard from him, so I reckon that he realised that he needed 10 more years :D
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mention the YYG wiki/helpdesk and help doc. Are you really saying if we became an independent product from GM wed magically get the motivation to do more work and be more a competitor to YYG any sooner? Im pretty sure for the reasons given, that would slow down our progress greatly for years to come and would ultimately kill the project. People like this shit for the GM compatibility no matter how much you as
You'd be surprised at how much people will forget about GM real quick if they have a product just as EASY to use, quick learning curve and same features.
People like ENIGMA because they are already familiar with GM.....but what if ENIGMA kept some of the "ease of use" but used its own functions, just as easy to use and remember, more powerful, more features, etc.......the same people who knob GM would quickly change their mind. In the end nobody gives a shit - people just want a product that allows them to do things they want done, and fast. Right now GM caters to the young segment of the population, what was their demo target 0 to 9 years old ? ;D ;D ;D
Now imagine ENIGMA was its own product, nothing to do with GM GML, but a product with a better IDE, where you could get things done faster, more efficient, have the same level of ease of use, flexibility x10 + allow advanced functionality, would you use it ? You'd be able to make better games, FASTER execution, smaller files......would you prefer BETTER or stick to GM compatibility and its flaws ?
Right now given YYG made the YYC included and improved their product quite a bit, and made a free version that is suitable for most of the kids using it anyway, little reason to want to port to ENIGMA, yet they will always have ENIGMA in case there is something that cannot be done in GM.
Right now there are so many features that are integrated in the IDE in GMS that are not working on LGm, like the physics, etc. so those porting their catch the clown games, sure, but some advanced games that used some IDE specific functions in GMS will be disappointed as they will need to code this from scatch in EDL !
As far as documentation I agree. We should have better documentation and more complete one, either integrated to the product or through a PDF or site like docs.yoyogames.com.
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almost completely, AND somehow "do a better job than YYG" in addition? REALLY, now?? Youll magically find the strength to do it then with life getting in theway just as much i can garentee it, you wont be able to
I think the devs mentioned their intention with ENIGMA from start was never to compete or make a new product. I think now is too late to talk about re-writing ENIGMA, even though that would be ideal ,at this pace would probably take a solid 2 to 3 years with full time contributors, that is not going to happen :D
and those like agent wolf who claim they can write an entire engine in 6 months - good luck with that, they are truly delusional at best :D
so this leaves ENIGMA with tons of broken pieces that new contributors are inheriting - don't you see a dead end here ? Lack contributors, lack of time is the big factor. so by the time ENIGMA is re-written GMS will probably be in version 5 or 6.......either way ENIGMA will always be behind.....so do you still think it is a good idea to be GM compatible and be always behind ?
This is damned if you do damned if you don't scenario.
Because right now ENIGMA lacks contributors and those still around lack time, so this stalls EGM development, how the bloody hell would one expect a new re-write of ENIGMA if the current devs don't have TIME for continuing on ENIGMA.....so yeah it's a dead end ATM, but aside from a shit unstable plugin, ENIGMA is still functional enough to do stuff in it.
Also the reason why you saw a comment of mine that I would return to GMS I was not pretending, the reason I said this is due to your mate Jason C. video engine, I could use his video engine, it would be ideal for making interactive games etc, he wanted it to work in EGM and was willing to do so freely, but...he needed pointer overloading (?) or some shit like that that we currently don't support or something about device or whatever..... If I can find shit in the market place that allows me to extend GMS to be able to do what I want, you bet I will do so, but right now there are still certain things I can do in EGM that I can't in GM, integrate my own C++ functions and compile it with my app or game.
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as though using the original data.win. also dont act like GMS cant do videos, it can and much better than enigma,
I never said otherwise, but you missed something. GMS can't do video for shit, natively.....You need an extension ! Before the market place which is basically the guinea pigs doing all the dirty work YYG was too lazy to do themselves, there was not any video support. The only when that existed was deprecated ages ago ,and even that one was rubbish at best.
As to lonewolf's video engine, you seem to have something against it, it's very clever, as the video blends into the game as an asset, and not just some overlay video player window - so you can make amazing stuff with it, blending sprites in the video etc, you could make MYST type games with his video engine, few people understand its value :D
and yes you,re right, it,s far better than ENIGMA's :P nobody argued that ! When I first started using ENIGMA, there was no market place and there was no video extension other than the shitty one from gm8 :D
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not with lonewolffs shitty windows only hogwash, thats asworthless in my book as what enigma has,
Really ? how ? ENIGMA is a BASIC directshow player.
have you seen all the features you can do with Lone's engine ?? scaling ? rotating ? Depth, using the video as an object ? blending game objects on top of the playing video. etc....now unless I was in a coma for 20 years and missed something, ENIGMA's video is basic video playback. Lone's video is advanced video which blends video rendering with the game renderer
allowing seamless integration of video and game elements together.......Lone's extension is more than just a video"player" :D
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Get this, GMS supports Windows, Mac, Linux, and Android for Video playback thanks to two well updated extensions on the marketplace. ;) everything that GM made obsolete one way or another can be just as easily added back with extensions just as ENIGMA did by being open source. Thats exactly what nearly all my extensions are doing. ;)
You got a good point there hence why I mentioned I might consider using GMS again, however where I disagree with you is Lone's video engine being rubbish, he might be supporting windows only, but it has amazing functionality that the other video plugins don't ,as the other extensions are basic video players/streamers..... Lone's is video extension on steroids lol, I'm not sure he would be able to support other platforms with those advanced features.
Besides I'm a windows user and intend to use Windows for a very long future ahead, so I have no plans to develop for Mac or other platforms. Wait for GMS2, you will be happy, it will allegedly run natively on Linux and other platforms, at that time I might also port my stuff to Windows / Linux as well.
As far as Android, there is no fucking way I am paying $199.99 for an export that got bumped $100. So compiling to android is off the table for now,. Right now my focus will be on windows and maybe soon Linux.
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@DS2 and lonewol-double-"f"-for-double-the-fuck -
LMFAO ! wow ok so I see there is still some tension between you two.......I thought you kissed and made up already ?! :D
(double the fuck) lol! thanks for the laugh mate, there is no better time than now for me to need it.....:D
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Windows, Mac, and Linux (FFMPEG based, cant beat that!) (one crossplatform extension, an extension done right)
https://marketplace.yoyogames.com/assets/1524/cttvideoplayer
Nice extension, but did you notice something TKG ?
FFMPEG is actually used by YYG themselves !!!! Why the bloody hell didn't YYG offer us the video playback functionality when they COULD have considering it is a basic function in other products.......they clearly wanted other people to do their dirty work so they could profit from it. Again, this is a basic video player, it does have some advantage, true, supports multiple video formats, is not codec dependent however it is bigger and carries some restrictions. You can do the same in lone's extension, only it supports AVI (AVI is a container, you can use the same codec only it would be dependent on whether you have it in your system, and that is a non issue today with newer OSs........ BASIC video players vs. ADVANCED video functionality. For people needing multi platform basic player functionality, sure they would go with the FFMPEG one. It's a free market in the end, people are free to use what best suits them, develop exclusively or not, it's not always by choice, that people don't develop for all the platforms that exists.
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Android (Android API based, still MUCH better than windows only shit!)
https://marketplace.yoyogames.com/assets/1406/videoplay-android
You still need the $199 android add-on to compile to android...... :D
You are expecting a one product for all platforms, but there has to be some compromise and taking into consideration the limits of these other platforms.
if lone did his video engine multi platform, I'm sure the windows part would suffer in functionality. Why the fuck do you think YYG deprecated functions in the first place ? because of their unified architecture.....so punishing windows users instead of finding alternatives.
Maybe mobile shite is the wave of the future but for some of us we will be using desktops for a long time.
I don't mind porting to Mac, Linux, Android, etc, but there again you need the money to buy all these add-ons, and unless you are expecting to earn significant profit out of this, it's bloody not worth it, it's always been a hobby for me and always will,
I did not want to be ripped the fuck off $299 for a YYC I certainly won't spend a bloody dime on the android export :P
So I will keep on making windows exclusive stuff for a while.......Until GMS2 comes out, then I will be able to run GMS2 natively in Linux, unless of course YYG will still charge for added exports, which I think they will, so it will be windows only for a long time.
I rather spend my money in better places than being ripped off! :P
This is where ENIGMA can(could have) really shined.
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lonewol-double-"f"-for-double-the-fuck
Im glad you like it dude, it warms my precious little heart bro. I was inspired by how Tigger explains the spelling of his name in Winnie the Pooh. :smileycat: (Y)
It's a shame Lone's gone (for the 2nd time) he would have been a good asset to ENIGMA, but he was called on duty again.....:D
Anyhow, do you happen to know if there is any extension to replace sound_add, becuse YYG deprecated sound_add to replace it with their shitty dynamic sound handling, but I want sound_add, is there an extension in the MP that allows adding sounds from external files ?
They added that function back a long time ago same with sprite/background_add but youll have to double check about the format they dont support as many as they did for gm8.1 and its still sandboxed.
You are wrong - they removed sound_add when they changed their audio system to dynamic one. yeah they don't support much crap indeed.....well looks like I'll be continuing to use ENIGMA for a while then :P
they are really fucking lazy at best I mean they already use FFMPEG in their bloody software, why the wank can't they support those formats !?!?!?!?WHY.....!!!
and now with Playtec's acquisition they assured everybody that "nothing" will change.
That's reassuring ;D ;D ;D ;D (Note the sarcasm!)
But obviously everyone seems content with GMS (GameMangledStudio) or the type of games they make are too basic for them to notice.
I might consider use GMS if MP extension bring back some of the stuff YYYG RAPED us from.
Okay correction, they still did add back sprite/background_add i just double checked. As for sound since your a windows guy do you have ANY idea how many dlls and extensions there are for this that work in GMS? Please google it im not going to find it for you theres tons of them.
You like adding to enigma's source, okay but you still havent told me how creating a dll is isnt as good. I find it easier. You dont have to recompile the whole engine code every time you do a new test run which takes a million years, just recompile the tiny ass c++ dll which take a milisecond then replace the old version with it in your include files. So much easier. And you can still use c++ because any dll for GMS is no less c++ than enigma's engine code. :p really dont get your point.
What you don't seem to know is that at runtime, all those DLLs are copied to the temp folder. This means that everyone selling their shit on the MP is getting ripped off.... because in theory this means you can run someone's game that was made with a paid DLL and steal it from the temp folder and use it yourself courtesy of yours truly, YYG..... I was made aware of this by a person selling on MP.
YYG makes it EASY for people to steal stuff from hard working individuals, steal game resources, etc.
I mean I know there is always a way to steal resources, but why the fuck make it easy ??? as easy
as copying them to the temp folder for the grabbing.
The bastardised methods they use packing all the shite in one EXE and decompressing it all in the temp folder irks me, it is a TERRIBLE, shitty way to publish a game. Nobody in their right fucked up mind publishes games that way, go look at any commercial game out there. When you want to push updates to your game you have to have your users download the entire fucking EXE along with its entire embedded resources.
The way I would use EGM to develop eventually is keep only the compiled code in the EXE and all resources into separate files, each encrypted, including room data, and breaking different aspects of the game or app into pieces like commercial games. If there is an update to a module, the user would only need minimal download.
Take windows, would you have liked it if Windows was just 1 EXE ?
So for big game developers this makes it a much faster process. There is no way I would release a 1GB EXE file. That's why I want the external resource _add functions, because I don't want everything to be packed inside the EXE.
We already had this discussion millions of times - It's easy to rip resources (art, models, sound, music etc.) from every game engine in existence.
And the fact it extracts a 3rd party dll you didn't make into a temp folder gives absolutely nothing to a wannabe ripper. Dll's by themselves are actually quite useless as well, that is why nobody ever hides them. The fact that GM extracts them in temp at runtime is actually more protection that you get from any game engine. If you want you can keep the dll external in the exe folder like every game engine ever.
So the fact is, the way GM handles resources and file includes is actually a much safer way than any other engine. If you used the now free Unreal4 or Unity engine, you would see how easy it is to get resources from those as well.
Thank you ExDeus so glad you could come to my rescue! ;)
Quote from: Darkstar2 on April 06, 2015, 03:44:14 AM
What you don't seem to know is that at runtime, all those DLLs are copied to the temp folder. This means that everyone selling their shit on the MP is getting ripped off.... because in theory this means you can run someone's game that was made with a paid DLL and steal it from the temp folder and use it yourself courtesy of yours truly, YYG..... I was made aware of this by a person selling on MP.
YYG makes it EASY for people to steal stuff from hard working individuals, steal game resources, etc.
I mean I know there is always a way to steal resources, but why the fuck make it easy ??? as easy
as copying them to the temp folder for the grabbing.
The bastardised methods they use packing all the shite in one EXE and decompressing it all in the temp folder irks me, it is a TERRIBLE, shitty way to publish a game. Nobody in their right fucked up mind publishes games that way, go look at any commercial game out there. When you want to push updates to your game you have to have your users download the entire fucking EXE along with its entire embedded resources.
The way I would use EGM to develop eventually is keep only the compiled code in the EXE and all resources into separate files, each encrypted, including room data, and breaking different aspects of the game or app into pieces like commercial games. If there is an update to a module, the user would only need minimal download.
Take windows, would you have liked it if Windows was just 1 EXE ?
So for big game developers this makes it a much faster process. There is no way I would release a 1GB EXE file. That's why I want the external resource _add functions, because I don't want everything to be packed inside the EXE.
darkstar2 i hate to break it to you i know that more than anyone im the one who basically gave mike the idea bc they didnt want to spend time on anything much more complicated. Im especially pissed mike didnt mention me and left the anouncement partialy to true valhalla on the game maker blog, thats another reason why i was never mentioned or thanked with such publicity.
Not that mike.dailly mentioned me in the single runtime exe announcemrnt like i was hoping, but if it wasnt for me they wouldve never added back that feature everyone loved about gm 8.1 was the single exe that can extract includes to the temp_directory. He thanked me when i told him, in a random forum topic where i said it, not like anyone is going to notice that. But mike added it bc i told him about iexpress.exe, and its dependencies makecab and wextract, which has been builtin and hidden in every windows desktop system32 folder since around Windows 98. Thats what they are using to make it one exe. Everyone loves that feature, im sorry you dont appreciate what i practically added to gmstudio in a sense. But if it wasnt for my "shitty" suggestion all your resources wouldnt be extracted at runtime, youd be relying on the zipped export, which takes a real nuckle head not knowing to how take resources out a zip so you should be happy they are doing more than that. The exe can be opened just like the zip export with 7zip but not like anyone would think to do that when they could just double click and run the exe which you cant do with a zip you need to extract or see the contents first with whatever archive manager you use.
Keeping resources in the .exe or externally is not really the discussion we were having. It's the imaginary sense of "security", that for some bizarre reason is so important.
Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. Like if you .exe is more than 50mb, then you should think of something else as the loading times are usually proportional (even if you don't load the resources at start, Windows might do some caching magic and load the whole thing at startup anyway). On the other hand for small games (less than those 50mb) I find external files unnecessary. I hate when I download a 10mb program and it has only 5 images, all of them external and some other useless files as well. I fell that they could of been inside it. That is what I love about GM and ENIGMA - for most games and programs I make I only need to distribute one file.
I know what you mean Harri. It doesnt really matter i was just saying to his terms an exe would be better than a loose zip when it comes to stripping assets. But doesnt matter as you said anyone who wants to strip assets will find ot easy regardless of the methed, its like pick one - an easy method or a microscopically easier one, the thing is its easy either way so its not like that matters. Even if were ever that "difficult" anyone whos determined can pull it off anyway.
DS2 i understand being paranoid but piracy and asset stripping is impossible to prevent and easy or not its still easy for just about any convinced hacker. It doesnt require hacking either, look at software media extractors they scan an exe for images sound video some docs flash and other media appended, and with no programming knowledge using user friendly (usually freeware) software to do this in minutes without a tutorial and extract shit from your favorite AAA game, so how an indie like yourself could do any better is out of the question why try if it wont prevent much even if you were nintendo or EA games? The new Sims by EA Games has already had its models and textures ripped and you can import your own models too in the game last i checked with a variety of trainers made by amateur programmers and hackers.
The only thing "hard" to extract (or in this case decompiled or disasembled) from a game is the original c++ or whatever language used's code files or workspace. It is doable with that too but that is reasonably (but still far from entirely) safe when actually compiled and not interpreted, but media is a complete lost cause in trying to do that.
If debug symbols are not included then it really is impossible to get any reasonable C++ code from a compiled C++ program. You can only get assembly, which is enough for cheating and hacking, but not enough to steal code.
lol no wonder why boomerang decompiler never worked for me as i thought advertised.
Quote from: TheExDeus on April 06, 2015, 10:59:14 AM
We already had this discussion millions of times - It's easy to rip resources (art, models, sound, music etc.) from every game engine in existence.
Right, and leaving the bloody resources raw and unprotected makes it super easy......might as well make the rippers work for it :D Also there are ways to check for game focus and once out of focus said resources are removed from memory/VRAM or scrambled. The way I would handle a game is only load resources for current level, not all the fucking resources in RAM.... That's how most commercial games work, so to hack my resources they'd only have access to whatever is loaded in memory :D but again as said - there are clever ways to deter cheaters.......So if they cannot do it from memory they won't be able using external ripping tools either as the files on the HD would be encrypted :D
I think you lot are missing the point, I could give a shite less what Mike or any bloke thinks, as an advanced developer I want to be given freedom to do what I bloody want with my game assets - not be IMPOSED stuff !!! I come on now - how many commercial games come in ONE EXE for fucksake !
Go look at any game, it's scattered with files all over....Some game companies don't protect their assets, and many do - but the point is they have freedom to.. putting everything in one EXE is bad practice, but it was done in GM for convenience and to calm the masses, because the kiddies using said software don't have advanced coding skills to make their own resource handling!!! so GM will always cater to the 0-9 year old range......you will see others agree with me that YYG has cornered people and imposed things........If I didn't know better I'd say you both switched sides and praising YYG for their glory and fail to see their many flaws......I wish Robert was here to remind you of some of them.
because GM is not flawless.......:D
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And the fact it extracts a 3rd party dll you didn't make into a temp folder gives absolutely nothing to a wannabe ripper. Dll's by themselves are actually quite useless as well,
Again you missed the point ! Think of developers who release their shite in the MarketPlace, and SELL IT !!! Let's say for example you buy it and use it in your game........GUESS WHAT, the person who will run your game will have that DLL extracted in the temp folder ! THIS MEANS that anybody playing your game could steal your extension (the one you worked your tits off for and SELL!) and use it........This was reported to me by more than 1 developer on the MP!!!
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So the fact is, the way GM handles resources and file includes is actually a much safer way than any other engine. If you used the now free Unreal4 or Unity engine, you would see how easy it is to get resources from those as well.
For most of the market segment they target yes, but they cannot be taken seriously by those who want flexibility. They are clearly cornering people who want to do advanced stuff.
I don't give a FUCK! it is MY decision to make how I handle my resources, not theirs or anybody else's, regardless of the damned excuses.
They are very LAZY at best, the "we don't support this do your own" attitude is what has driven away some people from GM. now they give people a Market Place to sell their extensions, that's good, but yet those extensions sold in the MP are in plain view when you run an EXE that was used with it, so free for anybody to steal and use without paying ! LW was the first person to tell me about this, so please don,t give me this rubbish about how secure YYG is. lol.
if I didn't know better I'd think some people here got hired by YYG ! when it was only not long ago some were talking trash......
the day people will use your stuff and take credit for it Sammy, you might have a different stance. How'd you like it if you worked your tits off for an extension and wanted to sell it in the MP but it was stolen because someone used it in their games and figured it was there visible in plain view in the temp folder lol!
maybe you don't mind, but some people are strong on principles. :D I pay motherfucking money to buy their software, I didn't steal / pirate it so I expect my shite not to be stolen or for YYG to facilitate and make so damn easy !!! I know that nothing is fool proof but at least make it challenging/hard for the cunts out there to scam you !!!
Regarding the 1 exe vs. multi files, I can't believe what I'm reading, I'm in shock... there are many advantages to wanting to keep all aspects of your game in many files over 1 exe....... Take many commercial games, you will see proof of that.
When there are updates to a game at least you don't have to download the entire fucking game, but only the necessary files get updated........
Imagine you release a good game and break your game assets and levels into multi files like any commercial game, now imagine you want to add levels, update a level, fix some bugs, etc...would you rather tell your users, hey download my wank 600mb EXE file or hey, download this 5MB patch ! Come on now....... :D
Sure I agree, small games is a different story, but we should be given the choice damn it ! let's say I make a huge adventure games with lots of CG, video, etc, do you really think Harry and Samual that I will release a 1GB EXE LMAO! that is crazy if you think so, but currently with GMS you are stuck, but hey maybe YYG thought most people would make Catch the Fucks type of games. :P ENIGMA is the lesser of 2 evils atm, sure there are pros to me using GMS, but there are pros to me using ENIGMA, I guess I have to compromise somewhere. If I can find an alternative to sound_add that supports mp3, I can work from there and code my own extensions.
Quote from: TheExDeus on April 06, 2015, 03:04:12 PM
Keeping resources in the .exe or externally is not really the discussion we were having. It's the imaginary sense of "security", that for some bizarre reason is so important.
Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. Like if you .exe is more than 50mb, then you should think of something else as the loading times are usually proportional (even if you don't load the resources at start, Windows might do some caching magic and load the whole thing at startup anyway). On the other hand for small games (less than those 50mb) I find external files unnecessary. I hate when I download a 10mb program and it has only 5 images, all of them external and some other useless files as well. I fell that they could of been inside it. That is what I love about GM and ENIGMA - for most games and programs I make I only need to distribute one file.
Harri it is proper to release in several files, if you want one files you can pack your files into an self installer (one of many) and distribute this 1 file.
Then when you have an update, you can use a patcher type program and distribute only necessary files to your clients, and not have to ask them to download the whole thing.
Quote from: time-killer-games on April 06, 2015, 05:13:19 PM
DS2 i understand being paranoid but piracy and asset stripping is impossible to prevent and easy or not its still easy for just about any convinced hacker. It doesnt require hacking either, look at software media extractors they scan an exe for images sound video some docs flash and other media appended, and with no programming knowledge using user friendly (usually freeware) software to do this in minutes
LOL you just proved my point then, sure if they were appended to EXE yeah..... I tell you what when I find some time (in between the eating, sleeping, wanking, and work) I will set up an example and I will let you have fun to TRY to rip my file.....deal ?
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without a tutorial and extract shit from your favorite AAA game, so how an indie like yourself could do any better is out of the question why try if it wont prevent much even if you were nintendo or EA games? The new Sims by EA Games has already had its models and textures ripped and you can import your own
lol - you'd be surprised of how many commercial games are not protected or done so correctly....most companies put more emphasis on their fucked up DRM they know can be easily cracked rather than encryption of their assets - sure eventually people will figure out how to decrypt your shite, but only if you use the same algorithm....what I plan to do is something that is not done by many company, even less, not a single commercial game....but anyhow, like I said, you just are inspiring me that's all.....I'll let you and Harri have fun cracking my example.
when and if you do, then if it tooks lots of efforts and time, it will be job well done....otherwise I will re-work my strategy.
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models too in the game last i checked with a variety of trainers made by amateur programmers and hackers.
It's a joke how some companies lay out their files in the oppen, it's as if some game companies are begging for people to steal assets from them, this should not even be a discussion it is fairly easy to rip most games out there, like I said these companies are focusing on other priorities, if they get stolen from they have lawyers and millions of $, not the poor motherfuckers like us.
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The only thing "hard" to extract (or in this case decompiled or disasembled) from a game is the original c++ or whatever language used's code files or workspace. It is doable with that too but that is reasonably (but still far from entirely) safe when
Ok, when I'm done with my example I will let you go at it and try to rip it and crack it....and please stop reminding me of vram ripping, memory ripping I know and am aware of all that, this is covered :D
QuoteAgain you missed the point ! Think of developers who release their shite in the MarketPlace, and SELL IT !!! Let's say for example you buy it and use it in your game........GUESS WHAT, the person who will run your game will have that DLL extracted in the temp folder ! THIS MEANS that anybody playing your game could steal your extension (the one you worked your tits off for and SELL!) and use it........This was reported to me by more than 1 developer on the MP!!!
People on Unreal4 marketplace sell models and textures. And you know what? You can open any Unreal4 game that use these models and textures and rip them. Same with Source engine or any other. Nobody CARES that their assets can be ripped - if you sell something then it means you have a stricter copyright law on your side. If someone uses something you didn't permit, then you can go to court with that person. And that is the reason why nobody does that. If people use the ripped assets for a game, then they usually release it for free, and in that case the person making the assets couldn't care less, as nobody gained any monetary value from that. That is why all the Mario clones and so on are permitted.
Anyway, I agree that people should be given a choice. But this choice is usually only given if you have a full access to source code (like ENIGMA) or if the engine is low enough level. For example, Unreal4 has it's own asset packaging system, which you cannot modify without changing the source of Unreal4 itself. If you want to pack all your assets in the exe you cannot do that, there is no such choice. The same with Source, Unity or Blizzard's engines. They all have their own way to store resources and you cannot make your own "crypted" version. That is why you can get their resources so easy, because someone needs to create one tool and every game made by that engine can be a target. Something like when the GM decompiler was a thing. So ENIGMA and GM has the luxury of giving you the choice, but as ENIGMA is the only one you can modify yourself, then this luxury extends mostly to it.
QuoteHarri it is proper to release in several files, if you want one files you can pack your files into an self installer (one of many) and distribute this 1 file.
Then when you have an update, you can use a patcher type program and distribute only necessary files to your clients, and not have to ask them to download the whole thing.
But as I said I was talking about small programs. Something that weighs less than 50mb (though this is quite arbitrary) should only have auto-update for convince. I know that many people years ago were posting ragefully on YYG, because in some Australian desert they have very bad DSL and cannot download anything larger than 3mb. But cmon, if we take that as the common denominator, then we wouldn't have any digital distribution platforms. :D Most people can get cheap net that is fast these days (I pay 22Eur for 250mbit optical to the house, but my country is an exception) and I wouldn't even mind downloading a 3GB patch (like some Ubisoft games are known to have) in 5min. I don't support that either of course, but I don't see that as a major problem. It's "good practice" vs "good enough practice".
^Couldn't have said it better myself . ;)
Quote from: TheExDeus on April 07, 2015, 10:28:30 AM
QuoteThat is why all the Mario clones and so on are permitted.
They are NOT. Whether for non profit or commercial, you cannot RIP assets from games and use them without written permission. Some companies are more lenient and allow fan games, videos, etc, like LucasArts, others are not and they enforce their rights. To my knowledge, Nintendo does NOT allow use of their assets, whether free or not, without their consent. There is precedent about companies going against fan games (FREE), perhaps you are not aware.
Not everyone has time to go to court and run after every kid who steals your bloody assets - so if you can protect them or make it harder why not......WHY NOT - that's my motto.... WHY NOT :D
Your arguments are limited at best, what about people developing DLLs in market place and selling them, what about the fact these are in FREE view in the temp folder, which means anybody running a game made with such extensions can STEAL them and use them without paying......
Special Agent J. C. also known as Lonewolf, made me aware of this.....If someone were to use his video engine to make a game and distribute game, any cunt can simply take a look in their temp folder and steal his bloody engine and use it without paying for it!!! You'd be happy with that Harry ?
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But this choice is usually only given if you have a full access to source code (like ENIGMA) or if the engine is low enough level. For example, Unreal4 has it's own asset packaging system, which you cannot modify without changing the source of Unreal4
Actually one could pull this off with GMS using GML and making use of the add functions but YYG fucked sound_add in the arse anyway, so with a mixture of clever GML and extensions you CAN do that in GMS no need for the source code. I'd really HATE to see the fucking source code of that trite engine to be honest, it must be mess, yeah the mess YYG inherited but nonetheless, they duct taped it like crazy, and I have a feeling GMS2 will not be the complete rewrite people had hoped, it's probably just more duct taping, a new IDE, native platform support for IDE and some new functionality.
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itself. If you want to pack all your assets in the exe you cannot do that, there is no such choice. <
Who the bloody hell would want to do that ? It might be convenient for small games I agree, but for larger games no way. Most commercial games use external assets, some pack them, some protect them, but they are external. Every game I have owned and run had external assets. On big games when you want to distribute only fixed to specific area (levels, gfx, etc) add stuff, you would want to break your game into as many pieces as possible......otherwise for most games you'd have to download the entire bloody game to update just a few items. That would be silly.
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ENIGMA and GM has the luxury of giving you the choice, but as ENIGMA is the only one you can modify yourself, then this luxury extends mostly to it.
Unfortunately ENIGMA has its limits and flaws and right now painfully unstable (IDE part).
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convince. I know that many people years ago were posting ragefully on YYG, because in some Australian desert they have very bad DSL and cannot download anything larger than 3mb. But cmon, if we take that as the common denominator, then we wouldn't have any digital distribution platforms. :D
People STILL complain now, some consider EXE larger than 2MB to be too big... But yeah you keep forgetting the target audience for KinderGartenStudio (new name for GMS lol!). Of course if you are going to make a 1 level catch the shitty clown, 3 sprite, 1 sound, yeah would be kinda silly to have external files.
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Most people can get cheap net that is fast these days (I pay 22Eur for 250mbit optical to the house, but my country is an exception) and I wouldn't even mind downloading a 3GB patch
lol - I really hope there is no such game that has 3GB patches! Though I have downloaded 1GB patches before :D but they were probably some mix of DLC in it.
QuoteThey are NOT. Whether for non profit or commercial, you cannot RIP assets from games and use them without written permission. Some companies are more lenient and allow fan games, videos, etc, like LucasArts, others are not and they enforce their rights. To my knowledge, Nintendo does NOT allow use of their assets, whether free or not, without their consent. There is precedent about companies going against fan games (FREE), perhaps you are not aware.
Not everyone has time to go to court and run after every kid who steals your bloody assets - so if you can protect them or make it harder why not......WHY NOT - that's my motto.... WHY NOT :D
Game clone doesn't necessarily mean 1:1 ripped assets. You can be "inspired" by them. Take the assets, recreate them with slight modifications and use them. I have not seen any free game that has been in any legal trouble. That just doesn't happen. And if you want to use the assets directly, you must ask the user to get the game (like Stargus which is Starcraft clone). Here is a good list of clones: http://osgameclones.com/ . And as far as I know none of them have been in any real copyright problem.
QuoteSpecial Agent J. C. also known as Lonewolf, made me aware of this.....If someone were to use his video engine to make a game and distribute game, any cunt can simply take a look in their temp folder and steal his bloody engine and use it without paying for it!!! You'd be happy with that Harry ?
I wouldn't care one bit. But getting the .dll doesn't allow one to use it. You have to reverse engineer the whole interface. If it was so trivial, then everyone would be using BINK video in their games instead of some Lonewolf video engine. And even then BINK wouldn't care, as if the persons don't sell the game (or get any monetary gain from it), then 99% of companies don't do anything. As suing and then paying a lot of money for lawyers and things like that is a waste. And people who can reverse engineer the dll, then they are competent enough to get the dll out of the game anyway even if you encrypt it.
QuoteWho the bloody hell would want to do that ? It might be convenient for small games I agree, but for larger games no way. Most commercial games use external assets, some pack them, some protect them, but they are external. Every game I have owned and run had external assets. On big games when you want to distribute only fixed to specific area (levels, gfx, etc) add stuff, you would want to break your game into as many pieces as possible......otherwise for most games you'd have to download the entire bloody game to update just a few items. That would be silly.
But that is the point of GM. GM games are usually very small, they are self-contained. GM is the go-to engine for things like LudumDare where you have 48h to make something. I hate that I download a 5mb game and it consists of 25 files. At the same time if you WANT to have everything external you can. All I'm saying is that it should be a choice. Unreal doesn't have that, GM has it partially. ENIGMA has it fully.
QuoteUnfortunately ENIGMA has its limits and flaws and right now painfully unstable (IDE part).
But the best part is that you can extend the limits and fix the flaws. I have fixed many bugs and implemented a lot of very interesting features in the past two-three months. When I have more free time I will try to make a topic about them. IDE part is a soar point though, and something I sadly cannot change. If we are not able to get any Java dev's on Windows, then we will sadly have to ditch LGM. And as I am not part of NaturalGM either, then I will have to start something from scratch. Which is something I'm not a big fan of.
Quote from: TheExDeus on May 12, 2015, 08:38:38 AM
If we are not able to get any Java dev's on Windows...
I am busy till end of July, but then i will try to fix the plugin part.
Thank you for trying! Can't wait. :)
Quote from: TheExDeus on May 12, 2015, 08:38:38 AM
Game clone doesn't necessarily mean 1:1 ripped assets. You can be "inspired" by them. Take the assets, recreate them with slight modifications and use them.
No Harri, there is a provision for a Similarity. I could re-create a PAC MAN game with my own assets and sprites with a different sprites going in a maze and eating apples.
If a game is too similar to another, that is also grounds for a game company to go after you, and PAC MAN is the good example of that. Of course you cannot copyright a concept and type of a game.
I believe the term is called substantial similarity.
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I have not seen any free game that has been in any legal trouble. That just doesn't happen.
Many have , they just never went to court, because usually a company will send a S&D and most people comply :D Also just because no people get in trouble does not mean it's ok, companies have rights at their disposal, they can use to enforce it or ignore it for certain cases.
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I wouldn't care one bit. But getting the .dll doesn't allow one to use it. You have to reverse engineer the whole interface. If it was so trivial, then everyone would be using BINK video in their games instead of some Lonewolf video engine.
lol, the original DLL is there in plain view, all you would need is to get the functions, that you could probably find posted by some online.....Also BINK video is comparing apples and oranges, :D I'm going to eventually buy lone's engine, the fact you can use video as an object and blend it with actual sprites is brilliant...Too bad one cannot use it in ENIGMA. :D
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And even then BINK wouldn't care, as if the persons don't sell the game (or get any monetary gain from it), then
lol there is a FREE version with splash screen before and after your videos, so you'd have to get a pirated version of the licensed release - and they WOULD care, piracy is illegal, whether you use it FREE or for profit. If you were in front of a judge the "your honour I did not gain any profits from this ......." would not hold in any court of law......:D
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But that is the point of GM. GM games are usually very small, they are self-contained. GM is the go-to engine for things like LudumDare where you have 48h to make something. I hate that I download a 5mb game and it consists of 25 files. At the same time if you WANT to have everything external you can. All I'm saying is that it should be a choice.
LOL exactly my point, So you seem to imply that GM is for small games, i guess people are really not pushing the limits right ? A clever coder could as easily use GMS to make a complete MYST like game, if they used the right combination of extensions and proper coding. GM does not have to be limited to the small kiddies games. I have the skill and know-how to make immensely interactive games, MYST type, etc, but I lack the artistic skill. GMS is poor at handling large games, it's been said since day fucking 1 on the GMC, but that was assuming you loaded all your assets in the IDE..... but using external resources you can make a game as big as you want, loading only necessary assets as needed.
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Unreal doesn't have that, GM has it partially. ENIGMA has it fully.
Actually GM originally had FULL support for that, but once they started deprecating functions that changed.
But with extensions you could probably pull that off.
ENIGMA fully, yes, that's great, but there is lots still broken unfortunately.
GMS has gone miles to
fix many things add more duct tape to its product to give the impression that they fixed things, but in terms of stability and speed what a big motherfucking difference GMS is next to GM6. so it has gone a long way :D
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But the best part is that you can extend the limits and fix the flaws.
I WOULD if I COULD, JAVA is not my thing :D
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IDE part is a soar point though, and something I sadly cannot change. If we are not able to get any Java dev's on Windows, then we will sadly have to ditch LGM. And as I am not part of NaturalGM either, then I will have to start something from scratch. Which is something I'm not a big fan of.
But if you ditch LGM, then how the bloody hell are we supposed to develop using ENIGMA ???
I'm just saying there hasn't been a case that I know of that a company sues a freeware game. There are wolfeinstein clones, worms clones, pac-man clones, terraria clones etc. etc. Nobody has ever been in any trouble. What IS illegal is to claim rights to something you don't own. As well as break licenses, which is actually much more important when using freeware stuff. Like there was an instance when free Linux utilities were sold, which ended in a lawsuit, as that broke the license. On the other hand there is instances where people sell open source games (like the flight simulator) and it's perfectly legal because of the license (but of course it is immoral). Basically what I am trying to say to you is that you WILL NOT BE SUED BY A GAMES COMPANY IF YOU MAKE A FREE REMAKE OF IT - that is a fact. You can make a million pacman clones, especially with your own graphics and release them for free and you will never be in any legal problems.
Quotei guess people are really not pushing the limits right ?
You don't even need extensions for that. I have made whole Diablo2 remakes in pure GM, and I can assure you that 2D wise it can create any game imaginable. 3D is another story (at least before GMS) as you couldn't write shaders and you still cannot optimize the renderer yourself.
QuoteBut if you ditch LGM, then how the bloody hell are we supposed to develop using ENIGMA ???
My idea is to write one myself. I will start with writing some tools, like GUI editors.
Not quite true, you cannot make pac man clones and use for example a circle with triangle mouth, etc, whether a game is FREE or for profit, it is illegal, and if your game is substantially similar there is a case - of course most of the time companies will send a S&D - but clones are unauthorised, whether a company will take actions is up to them...
A company can send C&D and even sue anyone they like, but from legal standpoint clones are legal at best, and in "gray area" at worst. They are certainly not illegal. U.S. copyright on games (board games though, but it should still apply) - http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html. And some old discussion on SO - http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/1653/how-closely-can-a-game-legally-resemble-another . This mentions some good points about copyright and trademark. Copyright can be broken if you take something directly (like you don't make your own circle with a triangle mouth), while trademarks are about names and IP (which has to be registered). For example, the open source Starcraft clone had some problems from Blizzard because it had "craft" in its name, not because it cloned the gameplay. Same with some pacman clones. For examples, an Android version of pacman named "Super Pac" was C&D by Namco, not because it was almost a 100% clone of pacman, but because it had the "Pac" in its name. I think the legal logic there is not necessarily to protect IP or trademarks, but to protect the customers. If you have a name very similar to an original IP, then you can trick the customers in believing it's made by the same company. And when clone sucks, the company gains bad reputation because of this misdirection.
Of course Namco will attack you if you make 100% clone just redrawing all your GFX, but it doesn't mean that legally they are on the high ground. They might win, they might not. Most people (like you too I suppose) just take the "safe road" and remove anything with C&D. But that doesn't mean that you were doing anything illegal. There is a shit ton of C&D stuff going on in YouTube and I'd say 90% of them are without merit. Look into TotalBiscuit or AngryJoe about C&D that backfired for the game dev's and more discussion about it (like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfgoDDh4kE0).
Yes I am aware of the frivolous yank lawsuits :) People don't know their rights so companies will sue at anything. Though most of the time people don't get sued but just threatened to remove said items !
From what I understand from all this is that you cannot make 1:1 copies of a game and use their assets, obviously, however, if your game is same concept and substantially similar, you can get warned.
Example, if I were to make a game, give it a new name, but the game is a pac man concept where my character goes through a maze and eats dots or whatever.... Even though I have a new game name, I draw my own circle and triangle, my own dots or whatever and I don't copy the maze 1:1, I draw my own maze........ I would still be warned by namco. Whether my assets are all hand made or not.
Also it's never about protecting the bloody customer, who are you kidding mate - this is all about corporate greed and the fucking money ! Companies look for their own monetary interest first, they don't give 2 shits about customers' protection. If they see that a fan game/clone game is amazing and gain grounds, popularity/virility ( :D ) even if FREEWARE, they will peruse it !
Mind you ,it all depends on the company. Some companies actually encourage clones/fan games, like LucasArts for example, its founder himself said publicly, that they support the fan community, providing you don't profit from your work.
Other companies like Nintendo, Namco, Atari, EA, etc, are categoric..... And even if you were to make a penis going through a maze instead of a circle (yeah that would be TKG's type of pac man clone lol) NAMCO would probably find SOME way to claim something........
So the SAFEST bet is to always contact the company you want to be inspired from and make a clone from, and get a written permission and approval FIRST. Of course most of the time you will be rejected and told no, or asked to pay licencing fees :D
Right now even an indie developer is fucked either way, because it's likely your game will always be similar to something out there and everyone is after the old money grab, the greedy tossers.... it's no longer about your rights anymore but your wallet :D
I've seen web sites which were proposing for free to play very old games online (like space invaders), which are not available anymore because they received 'Cease and desist' letters. I think this really sucks : when you are proposing very old games for free, it should be allowed. But as everybody knows we live in a world where only $ rules ! ;)
Quote from: egofree on May 14, 2015, 06:53:10 PM
I've seen web sites which were proposing for free to play very old games online (like space invaders), which are not available anymore because they received 'Cease and desist' letters. I think this really sucks : when you are proposing very old games for free, it should be allowed. But as everybody knows we live in a world where only $ rules ! ;)
That is different - they were offering integral games,even if a game is not available anymore, your IP and patents don't vanish ,they remain :D
Offering the integral games is one thing, and making clones out of your own assets is another.
Of course if you decide to take old games and offer them free, you will be hunt down and ordered to take down the content.
Some companies actually make full use of their rights :D