ENIGMA Forums

General fluff => Off-Topic => Topic started by: DaSpirit on September 24, 2014, 11:40:00 AM

Title: Restructuring the Community
Post by: DaSpirit on September 24, 2014, 11:40:00 AM
Today, in the ENIGMA IRC channel:
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<ENIGMA User> just found out about enigma and i'm pretty turned off by the immature community. don't think i want to stay
* ENIGMA User has left ("Leaving")

This is not the first time that the ENIGMA community has been viewed as immature. The problem is that this community is very lax; anything is allowed here. But too much freedom is problematic - it leads to anarchy. And while I do believe that anarchy is not always pure chaos, it is unattractive to others.

So I am proposing that we should be stricter on what we allow on the forums and what we do not. I'm not saying to remove "hate topics" or the like, just to control them better. If the discussion goes out of hand or if the discussion was never just anyway, we should lock the topics right away.

This is one reason why our community is small, and also part of the reason why this project is discredited. If people think that the community is immature, what does that say about the state of the project?

Discuss. Yay/nay?
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: onpon on September 24, 2014, 12:08:22 PM
If people view the community as immature, I imagine it's for the same reason that I do: use of racist and homophobic slurs, and other crude or offensive language. Like "GayMaka: Stupido". I was honestly surprised that Robert B Colton is apparently a young adult and not a pre-teen.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 24, 2014, 12:15:11 PM
Expect something like that no matter what, on any community.  You have your die-hard fanboys, competition and others. To me this is a comment of a hardcore GM fanboy who is attached to the product. Who has made quick judgement on the surface and only decided to tune in to the negative aspect.

A forum is by all means not representative of a product necessarily.  I am a user of many products and yet I don't participate in their forums, but their forums is quite a mess and full of hate, etc......yet the product is good.  So this could apply. I think ENIGMA has a specific market, it's a work in progress, and might turn off many people, especially those who are not willing to work around things, learn about code, etc.

Some RANDOM person showing up and bashing you, you got to then turn around and ask them if they actually used the product and how can it be made better....
You got to ask them to evaluate the number of updates and fixes and the fact developers actually discuss and listen to their users vs. another company they so defend.....

On the topic of forums, yes I do believe every forum should have rules to some extent.  I also believe a forum should have dedicated sections to talk about general or other stuff, like any forum, and perhaps a sub forum not visible to new users or unregistered viewers, available to developers or long time users/posters, etc.
I don't believe in censorship, just common sense. 

As far as hate - that is censorship territory, but again ti depends on the context..... You have 2 types of people,

1) Those who make personal attacks, hate others, insults, discredit and only spend their time degrading people, particularly newbies,etc... Sounds familiar ? Only  recently some people were called out by name on the GMC.......

2) Those who constantly complain and hate yet offer no arguments.  Mostly one liners and such...... IN a forum you need a blend of good and bad, but to some extent the bad can be helpful - if hate about something is backed up with arguments as to WHY a user hates something and provide something reasonable and factual.

3) Sub forums - dedicated forums on the product itself and only that and other sub forums on general discussion...... Nobody should be turned off if visiting the right forums........they should not visit non product related forums otherwise, or they would have no right to "complain" about a community and should go elsewhere.
So yes the PRODUCT itself and its forums related to such, should be attractive, professional and respectful. Obviously you are not going to post about your exploits and encounters inside a programming forum......

Should forums have rules ? YES.  It's good for its owners and users.
Should forums be moderated ? YES. (Note, there is a difference between moderation and censorship).
Should some forum areas be invisible to non members or new members ? YES ! YES! YES!  (meaning non product related areas).

And finally, I think most forums should add this disclaimer, I know I would on mine.
"The comments posted on this forum are those of their respective authors and do not necessarily represent the views of ENIGMA developers".

As to onpon:  Are you offended by the term "GayMaka Stupido" because you don't like these terms used OR you are a fan of GameMaker Studio ?" The first time I ever heard this was years ago, from an actual GM user, employing those terms.... The same way some people on the other side used "creative" terms to describe ENIGMA :D

Personally I don't judge a product by its forum.  When I joined the forum it was in the middle of flame wars between developers and some users.....But I saw potential in the product.  I guess I can see why some skeptics or die hard fans of GM would think the way they do.... One would really need solid intentions for something new to make the move, but most people don't probably realise that the product is so similar.......:P (by looks)

This is where closed areas would benefit.  Also I agree with you to SOME extent, I think racism, slurs, homophobia and crude language should be left off the source code...... It is not a requirement to be a forum member to use ENIGMA.....So at least keeping the source code free of such AND the documentation / site itself.
Fact is Robert and company have done more to an open source project recently than YYG has done in an extended period of time fixing stuff, breaking stuff, changing their mind etc.....  I guess some people have ways of expressing themselves

Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: DaSpirit on September 24, 2014, 01:08:58 PM
Really nice post, I agree with you, Darkstar2.

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Those who constantly complain and hate yet offer no arguments.  Mostly one liners and such...... IN a forum you need a blend of good and bad, but to some extent the bad can be helpful - if hate about something is backed up with arguments as to WHY a user hates something and provide something reasonable and factual.
One liners generally do not describe an opinion (unless of course, that line is really big), and those are types of topics we should be locking and avoiding in the first place.

Also, sure, the ENIGMA may be good too. But it is unorganized. Heck, it doesn't even have proper version numbers. We'll never know when we hit 1.0, and maybe we never will. This community and the product both reflect that same unprofessional vibe.

We have a potentially very peaceful community. While friends do curse at each other, for fun, outsiders can and will be insulted. We cannot choose who comes here, but we should set examples for any new users or new contributors.

Still, right now, maybe we need more, or better, moderators to moderate the existing moderators. I know that Josh does not want more moderators, but we need more control here. We need somebody who says "hey, chill" and warns others whenever something potentially insulting is said, because some of our current members don't notice this behavior.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 24, 2014, 01:44:25 PM

One liners generally do not describe an opinion (unless of course, that line is really big), and those are types of topics we should be locking and avoiding in the first place.

But do you see much of that here ?  Meaning inside the actual product sub forums and not the general or other ?  An occasional humour or funny comment is good at times, people lead stressful lives as it is, nothing wrong with some humour, especially when the people involved understand the context.  This is another big issue where people might be turned off.......CONTEXT.  For people who have known each other for a long time, both outside and on the forums might understand the context of a certain term or post, whilst the person joining the community might  feel offended or otherwise.  Which is why I guess to keep it fair and square, the only way in my opinion is keeping the official forums about the product, professional and the other forums non related relaxed or have a section for debates and other, closed or open, at least people can't use an excuse to say they were turned away, when they could have avoided those sub forums.

By one liner in my comment, I do not mean ALL one liners. As there is room for properly using one liners and there is the misuse of one liners when it is non constructive, offensive, trolling ,etc.

Examples:

"Your product sucks major bollox"

"Your product is shite!"

"you guys sux!"

"Your product is garbage"

etc.  You get the drift.  These type of people are bad for any community.  You don't have to even be a coder, just argument why you hate something and give your opinion as to what could make it better.  Luckily for the most part I find this community to be more friendlier and helpful than many other communities I've seen.........I guess some people decide only to judge an entire community based on cherry picking the wrong posts......:P

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Also, sure, the ENIGMA may be good too. But it is unorganized. Heck, it doesn't even have proper version numbers. We'll never know when we hit 1.0, and maybe we never will. This community and the product both reflect that same unprofessional vibe.

Spot on - I cannot agree more with this and had mentioned this before.  Even in LGM, with all the changes made, it was stuck to 1.8.5, then got finally promoted to 1.8.6....... I think it deserves far more than a .001 increment :D  I guess to some ENIGMA is work in progress, and might always be.......but in all fairness I think the same of "other" products too :D

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We have a potentially very peaceful community. While friends do curse at each other, for fun, outsiders can and will be insulted. We cannot choose who comes

Spot on again, your views align exactly with what I mentioned above, and I had not read your comment yet... CONTEXT..... People who know each other for a while vs. an outsider who will interpret it different.  Obviously you are not going to greet a stranger on the street with "Hey there MFka.....:P" or call some random person a dumb B* :D  So yeah, there is the common stereotype that this type of behaviour is only for pre-teens, kids, teens ,etc...... LOL  I beg to differ, there are probably as much adults if not more.  I have actually witnessed this quite a lot........Radio personalities, TV personalities, celebrities, judges, law enforcement.......TEACHERS (yes even at the University level) some of the stuff I witnessed and heard - you'd think some 12 year olds are more mature.......but anyhow that's for another topic.  On the good side, some of these people can be really nice and helpful towards others, they may act this way amongst their peers, friends, etc.

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here, but we should set examples for any new users or new contributors.

True, but at the same time we should not be robots. A bit of fun, humour and what not....is good !  Perhaps certain things belong in their own sub forums, I agree.
I have seen many highly disturbing terms or topics here that would not only turn away people but cause people to report the site (very serious stuff) but mostly they are posted outside the official forums......Which is why it is important to keep these areas restricted and not open to non registered or new members.

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Still, right now, maybe we need more, or better, moderators to moderate the existing moderators. I know that Josh does not want more moderators, but we need more control here.

You want moderators on a forum with 4 active posters, most by developers ? :D
Fact is the forum is not the whole deal.
People might be turned off because they get scared of ENIGMA, having the impression that it is not a FINISHED product (well er. it isn't :D) or being scared by the license or scared by open source, or scared by the bugs or what not, who knows.......I guess with the mobility CRAZE, it seems unlikely ENIGMA will attract many people.  The day ENIGMA will be complete + multi platform export etc, that might change.......though I think what ENIGMA needs is a complete detachment from the umbilical cord - it should have been cut off ages ago, and for the sake of compatibility might be paying the price now.  One thing about ENIGMA community, there is more freedom of people to express themselves and not being censored or bashed by moderators, admins, or banned because you disagree.......OR for users to insult newbies like some people called out on the GMC recently by users here......:)

So one has to look at both sides of the coin.

To what extent is moderation and censorship needed ? and where?
Is it more logical to moderate the official areas and keep other sub forums off limits,
or other methods?

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We need somebody who says "hey, chill" and warns others whenever something potentially insulting is said, because some of our current members don't notice this behavior.

Feuds between users.......flaming, etc.
Perhaps there should be a sub forum, (closed area / restricted) for certain type of heated debates that has potential to turn sour.  Things can go south quickly - Some people might choose the easy way out of just avoiding stuff, but why ? I am a strong believer of freedom of expression, but also believe in sub sections and moderation (NOT censorship).
Because too much censorship or excessive moderation might have the opposite effect......actual helpful contributors or users being pushed away.  Some people, as in real life, can appear mean on the outside core and "bad ass!" :D but are skilled and can be really helpful and beneficial.  Welcome to life :D

Big debates, heated topics, controversial topics people are usually afraid to discuss, I'm all for it......but they should definitely be restricted areas OUTSIDE the official forums....and a good disclaimer should be added to a forum.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Aegar on September 24, 2014, 01:54:00 PM
I'm the one who DaSpirit mentioned in the OP (thanks for leaving out my name, I appreciate it) and I'm happy to see that it at least sparked a discussion about community behavior.

For context, I do not and have not used GameMaker. I'm just a hobby gamedev who's studying various game engines but I do hope to push commercial products somewhere down the line. (Related note, I do hope that ENIGMA gets relicensed (http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=1832) soon.)

I made that comment about "immaturity" after reading the forums for a few hours. There's a distinct air of unprofessionalism all over the place and a lot of it comes from one or two main contributors to the project. Granted, ENIGMA isn't a commercial product so professionalism may not be a top concern, but I think there's a difference between "not being professional" and "being unprofessional" and I think ENIGMA leans toward the latter.

Even if ENIGMA is mainly meant to drive casual/hobby projects, it should still present itself in the best light. Unprofessional behavior on the part of the contributors or the community WILL reflect poorly on the actual software. Perception is everything. I think ENIGMA has potential but my enjoyment of it is already tainted because of stuff like this.

As of now, I still don't know if I actually want to keep up with ENIGMA and that's solely based on what I've seen on the forums. That may be irrational but it is what it is. I'm sure plenty of others have felt this way too.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 24, 2014, 02:18:40 PM

For context, I do not and have not used GameMaker. I'm just a hobby gamedev who's studying various game engines

That's great.  In terms of engines, other than what you noticed on forums, did you notice anything particular about ENIGMA ?  I'm asking this because some people might judge based on what they read on forums and not the product itself.  When I joined here I too read flaming, bashing and developers that called each other names and never agreed....but I looked further, deeper, to me what counts is the product and its potential, I KNEW coming into this that it was not a finished product and that it had its flaws (many), yet it's thanks to this community and ENIGMA that I brushed my C++ skills (maybe not at the level I can develop for ENIGMA) but enough to make really neat stuff for my projects and minimal contribution to the product itself.  So if one learns to look past this layer they will find lot of helpful stuff.  This is not a commercial product or a finished product.  What you describe is something present in many communities, particularly open source, free, etc....and even commercial too......You never used game maker, so you were not aware of the "community" they had way back then, which was not exactly as friendly towards new comers.

As far as hoping that ENIGMA gets a final license, etc, don't hold your breath on that, in my opinion I don't think anything significant will be changed.  If I was a lawyer, I'd offer my services FREE to resolve this once and for all......:D

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I made that comment about "immaturity" after reading the forums for a few hours.

I did the same when I joined and had the same reaction - and only reason why I registered and started posting was because of the helpful stuff I also read, as there were so many, and felt I could learn....which I did.  It all comes down to every person's tolerance or sensitivity and context I guess.  But indeed, perhaps to some people certain things might be inappropriate .....

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There's a distinct air of unprofessionalism all over the place and a lot of it comes from one or two main contributors to the project. Granted, ENIGMA isn't a commercial product so professionalism may not be a top concern, but I think

Well if they are main contributors, it means they are helping make ENIGMA better, sorting bugs, improving the product, probably in a faster time span and BETTER than another company, but you have not used game maker so I can understand your point of view as you might not be aware of previous discussions and past history and take certain context differently. Whatever you read here that came across as unprofessional or immature, i'm sure if you get to know the people involved you will see they are very skilled, know their stuff, helpful and very kind.

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contributors or the community WILL reflect poorly on the actual software. Perception is everything. I think ENIGMA has potential but my enjoyment of it is already tainted because of stuff like this.

It's a shame because in regards to gamemaker and ENIGMA you couldn't have an easier to learn and use engine and fast development times.  But you said it best, perception is everything.  No matter what you will never be able to please your entire user base.  No matter what there will always be negative perception of something, no matter how good it is.  That goes for games, movies, forums, software, relationships, people, you name it.

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As of now, I still don't know if I actually want to keep up with ENIGMA and that's solely based on what I've seen on the forums. That may be irrational but it is what it is. I'm sure plenty of others have felt this way too.

Can't argue there, you are right, there are probably many who think that.  Luckily there are some who look deeper.  But I guess there are many ways to keep things in check and many suggestions were given already.   I don't believe in censorship, but I agree that the OFFICIAL forums related to the product and development should be professional at all times.
user fights, developer feuds, developers flaming one another, etc should be kept in a restricted area, outside official areas, because that might turn people away no doubt.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: DaSpirit on September 24, 2014, 02:25:06 PM
@Darkstar2: Yes, definitely, context is a large part. You made a nice point about keeping in humor. I still think that we need some sort of additional control over what users says, but definitely not too much.

@Aegar: You weren't the first, but you also are not the last. I thank you, for your opinion.


So, this is what I think should be changed to improve our future community and our community now:
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: egofree on September 24, 2014, 02:59:53 PM
From my point of view, the most important is the support from the main contributors on this forum. They give a lot of their time to help people, and we should be very grateful for this. We should not forget that it's a free project. This means it's just a bunch of people who are working in their free time to make this project happen. As money rules the world, i have a lot of respect for people who spent thousands of hours just for the fun of it ! (Y)
I was feeling uneasy when developers were fighting each other, but it's a thing of the past, and the important is that the project can move on.  Concerning rude words, i don't think it's really a problem. I don't see people spending their time insulting each other, so we should not be too picky. But in a world where the politically correct rules, sometimes people are shocked very easily !  ;)
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Goombert on September 24, 2014, 03:09:09 PM
I actually want to say that DaSpirit is right and I have come around to somewhat agree. I have been less and less wild in my postings and a lot more focused on being constructive, including topics not getting out of hand. I take a different approach though, I do not want to see this community lose its freedom and I do not want to see anarchy and I do not want to pick favorites like the GMC administrators do (aristocracy), I like everyone here and my objective is that everybody gets along, criticism is always welcome.

Quote from: onpon
I imagine it's for the same reason that I do: use of racist and homophobic slurs, and other crude or offensive language. Like "GayMaka: Stupido". I was honestly surprised that Robert B Colton is apparently a young adult and not a pre-teen.
I just have to respectfully disagree to that, for one because I am gay and two because that misnomer is entirely harmless.

Quote from: DaSpirit
The website: Josh (the project leader) has had a new website design for a while (a few years actually) that would make ENIGMA look like the product it is. I asked him about this before, and he said that he hesitates putting it up because ENIGMA is indeed a WIP product, and he didn't want it to seem as if it was finished. The current home page is horrible. It's the first thing you see, and already, the product seems unprofessional.
I agree with this as well, we could at least remove hypnotoad and the derogatory comments from the footer as well as update the copyright after 2 years for god sakes. Not only does it look unprofessional, it looks dead!

Quote from: egofree
They give a lot of their time to help people, and we should be very grateful for this.
This is also something I agree with that sometimes I don't think people grasp a lot, I give up a considerable amount of my time to assist people, generally for my own enjoyment but I also like helping people and so do a lot of our contributors and community members.

All things herein considered I do not agree with bullshit topics like this as I just find it a huge waste of everyone's time and breathe, if you want to see the community to improve make a concerted and earnest effort to improve the conditions as well as to resolve disputes among members, democracy stops working when people stop believing in it.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 24, 2014, 03:20:51 PM
@Darkstar2: Yes, definitely, context is a large part. You made a nice point about keeping in humor. I still think that we need some sort of additional control over what users says, but definitely not too much.

He's not the first or last - true.  I've had people I know have the same reaction, but I respect what is said in PM to me, but been told by some people I encouraged or tried to bring in here that they were turned off mostly by the developers, some even saying lack of interest, etc. I won't name names, but to be honest I find these claims disturbing, because it might seem so on the outside, but the people referenced, have been nothing but hard working in trying to make the product better, there is a difference between not wanting to and not having time !  I don't necessarily agree with every reason, however until recently there was one user who was turned away because of flaming from devs, I think some people know who I am referring to, however, it was later found out other motives of that user which I won't get into - So one has to look at both sides.....I tend to weigh both good and bad, and instead of saying "why I SHOULDN'T bother here" I say "WHY should I bother" and honestly I don't regret it, and I can see many reasons to WANT to stick around, despite everything.
Also sometimes when there is debate, heat, and tension it is beyond you, you tend to sometimes lower yourself to the level and act the same way, been there, done that, when attacked......but so long as you quickly get back on path there is no problem in my opinion.   One could easily use judgement and differentiate the recurrent trouble makers only making trouble vs. those who are genuine contributors (by contributors I mean mostly in posting, not just with code).

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@Aegar: You weren't the first, but you also are not the last. I thank you, for your opinion.

One person which I won't name, who felt this way, who left (in a weird way from here) had the potential of being an amazing contributor and very useful to ENIGMA.  But on the flip side, said person did not want to stick around and had other motives.  So yeah, and yes it is no secret that ENIGMA has lost some developers who left / quit due to disagreements with other devs or the direction ENIGMA was taking......For starters things start at the root.....developers.  You can moderate your users and things that cross the line, but at the root it is important to have developers and a team that respect one another and their project......as I think that is the biggest factor that will show in your final product and how people perceive your site.

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So, this is what I think should be changed to improve our future community and our community now:
  • The website: Josh (the project leader) has had a new website design for a while (a few years actually) that would make ENIGMA look like the product it is. I asked him about this before, and he said that he hesitates putting it up because ENIGMA is indeed a WIP product, and he didn't want it to seem as if it was finished.
It's strange but I agree with Josh in a way, however, I also agree about a new site, but you can still have both worlds, mentioning that your product is work in progress.  I have mentioned this long ago, but there is so much outdated info on the site, and there could be better documentation / stand alone documentation like YYG even for a WIP.  I guess that is contributor driven as well, problem is lack of time of main developers. Time is the key issue.

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The current home page is horrible. It's the first thing you see, and already, the product seems unprofessional.[/li][/list]

lol.  I've seen far worse.  But I agree.  Though it depends on each individual, personally I judged based on the core, the product itself and its potential, I weighed in on what I could do in ENIGMA that I cannot in GM/GMS, a product I PAID MONEY for :p

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  • ENIGMA version numbers. The home page can display the current version, and version updates. It would also give us a better idea on what needs to be done before a 1.0.

lol, what you mean ENIGMA is not in version 1, is it alpha still ? :D
But yeah an updated page with recent changes, changes to come, remaining issues.  I agree, but again you also need developers with time on their hands or user contributors with enough time to take care of all that.

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  • The moderation: Those topics about hating GMC members have got to go. While the intention of those topics is to make those members look bad,
In many cases the comments made were spot on and accurate/factual, it is a known FACT that some GMC members have not been examples to follow, nor have they always been nice towards others that did not share their point of view.....and I won't mention names.....but the ones called out, were done so rightfully.  ...

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it is making ENIGMA's community look bad.[/li][/list]

you do have a point there, feuds between communities is counterproductive, even if what is said about other side is so true most of the time :D  I DO agree about it when it relates to someone/an individual, however about posts talking negative about another product, when properly argument with facts, I think is not a bad thing.

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  • The current forums: I think that the forum stuture should change slightly.
What's a "stuture" ? :D

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I think some of them are ambiguously named, such as "Issues Help Desk". A "Help Desk" does not seem like it's community help, but rather, it's help from the company making the product. YoYo Games has a Help Desk, and it's more about licensing and technical issues, rather than GML help. Other subtopics, we can combine, such as the Audio and Sprite subforums. We need to make it more for users than developers, in my opinion.[/li]
[/list]

100% agree on the forum structure and
revamp of the sub forums categories.
I'm even for a closed area for heated debates and controversial topics :P
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 24, 2014, 03:27:18 PM
From my point of view, the most important is the support from the main contributors on this forum. They give a lot of their time to help people, and we should be very grateful for this. We should not forget that it's a free project. This means it's just a bunch of people who are working in their free time to make this project happen. As money rules the world, i have a lot of respect for people who spent thousands of hours just for the fun of it ! (Y)
I was feeling uneasy when developers were fighting each other, but it's a thing of the past, and the important is that the project can move on.  Concerning rude words, i don't think it's really a problem. I don't see people spending their time insulting each other, so we should not be too picky. But in a world where the politically correct rules, sometimes people are shocked very easily !  ;)

Agreed with egopay, I mean we don't all crucify each other all the time.......Everything in moderation, there are more helpful and constructive posts than there are flames against one another. But the problem with this is even if these things are the past, new users who join who might go through the forum might read these old posts and be turned away, before they get a chance to read EVERYTHING.......What sticks to people is the negative first......that's how the mind works.

If I were to place a piece of turd in a plate next to a piece of chocolate cake next to it......you'd probably focus your intention on the plate of turd and react to it, more than say "mmmmm look at this amazing chocolate cake!"..... :D
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Aegar on September 24, 2014, 03:30:27 PM
Revamping the website and reorganizing the forum structure would be great first steps, but like Darkstar said, it ultimately depends on the main leaders of the ENIGMA project. It's their responsibility to cultivate the kind of community they want. If they don't have the time or energy to work on community cultivation, moderation, etc. then they should find a capable volunteer who knows how to manage/build a community.

Or maybe this is already the kind of community they want... in which case, I don't see much hope for the future.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: edsquare on September 24, 2014, 03:31:44 PM
From my point of view, the most important is the support from the main contributors on this forum. They give a lot of their time to help people, and we should be very grateful for this. We should not forget that it's a free project. This means it's just a bunch of people who are working in their free time to make this project happen. As money rules the world, i have a lot of respect for people who spent thousands of hours just for the fun of it ! (Y)
I was feeling uneasy when developers were fighting each other, but it's a thing of the past, and the important is that the project can move on.  Concerning rude words, i don't think it's really a problem. I don't see people spending their time insulting each other, so we should not be too picky. But in a world where the politically correct rules, sometimes people are shocked very easily !  ;)

Agreed with egopay, I mean we don't all crucify each other all the time.......Everything in moderation, there are more helpful and constructive posts than there are flames against one another. But the problem with this is even if these things are the past, new users who join who might go through the forum might read these old posts and be turned away, before they get a chance to read EVERYTHING.......What sticks to people is the negative first......that's how the mind works.

If I were to place a piece of turd in a plate next to a piece of chocolate cake next to it......you'd probably focus your intention on the plate of turd and react to it, more than say "mmmmm look at this amazing chocolate cake!"..... :D

Agreed, so maybe we should moderate ourselves and a closed subforum where longstanding memebers can do/say anything but that is closed to newcomers, until they reach a certain number of posts or until they have been memebers for... what? a year?
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: edsquare on September 24, 2014, 03:37:33 PM
Revamping the website and reorganizing the forum structure would be great first steps, but like Darkstar said, it ultimately depends on the main leaders of the ENIGMA project. It's their responsibility to cultivate the kind of community they want. If they don't have the time or energy to work on community cultivation, moderation, etc. then they should find a capable volunteer who knows how to manage/build a community.

Or maybe this is already the kind of community they want... in which case, I don't see much hope for the future.

Having been on DEBIAN forums, Ubuntu forums and having witnesed how good contributors got banned for really inocent stuff posted on the offtopiq forum I tend to see moderation with a little distrust, one of the things I like best about LGM/ENIGMA is it's community.

That said a revamping of the main site and the forums is not a bad idea but... I think Josh, Robert, Harri, Ism et all are too valuable to have them waste their time moderating a forum, and keeping a site to date, I like them better developing ENIGMA  :cool:
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: onpon on September 24, 2014, 03:57:40 PM
I just have to respectfully disagree to that, for one because I am gay and two because that misnomer is entirely harmless.

"Harmless" and "mature" are two distinct things.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: TheExDeus on September 24, 2014, 04:06:02 PM
I have already made my opinion known on this for quite some time. I already mentioned several times how immature language and useless GM bashing reflects badly on ENIGMA. At the same time I also mentioned, that I really don't care. And I guess it's a view Josh shares with me, as he hasn't cared much either. I don't really care because this project has never been a "product" for me. It's a hobby. I would post here, and make ENIGMA, even if I was the only person on earth using it. At the same time I respect GM as the product that inspired me into programming, as well the creation of ENIGMA. It should be respected because of that even if I don't agree with some specific things they are doing.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 24, 2014, 05:32:31 PM
I respected GM for quite a long time, as a paying customer since its early beginnings.  Where I have a problem is the direction said company has taken and how they went about it, and I'm sure many people who has started using GM since the early days will understand and attest to that.  I think paying customers have earned their right to bash, when warranted, especially when many of those bashing customers made constructive suggestions, none of which developers give a damn about or listen, proof is in the pudding mate, countless times they have responded rudely to people making said suggestions who were mostly answered with "make your own" or "wait for extensions" or "that's the way it is and we won't change it" rubbish.  + the attitude of REMOVING something instead of fixing it........and the whole story.

I think constructive criticism that is warranted and genuine is not a bad thing.  You can't get a community where everyone agrees and sends flowers and praises everything.  There are ways to do so.  Most people who have bashed GM have stated WHY, and were genuine, as opposed to simply random, baseless bashing.  As a long supporter of GM and paying  customer, I don't agree at all in the direction YYG is taking and the methods they use in how certain things are done....Robert has exposed many of this as well, and others have.

This is what sets apart GameMaker from ENIGMA, even though ENIGMA was insipired from GM, ENIGMA's developers actually listen to constructive criticism and bloody do something about it, for the better, instead of just brushing people off and saying "do your own".  You can have a discussion and give your feedback.  Certain features found in the market place are BASIC functions that were available in previous GM versions and should have bloody remained, as they are basic functions in other products costing fractions less......But now they have managed to get people to do their dirty work, and take 70% cut ! There is a difference and line one should not cross when it comes to bashing, it should never cross the line into slandering, defamatory and personal attacks to a person's character however.  I agree with ego.....moderation is good but it can be abused too.  I agree with him that there are places where very skilled contributors were banned for very innocent things, even when posted in off topic forums.....this is NOT uncommon.  What starts as moderation can quickly turn in to trigger happy, power fest and outright  censoring.  The last thing this place wants is to become another GMC community. :D


Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: TheExDeus on September 25, 2014, 02:54:06 PM
But bashing GM in these forums is the same as bashing Mississippi gun laws in a Swedish kitchen decoration forum. All it does is gives bad rep to ENIGMA. We do listen to criticism, but YYG won't listen to criticism on ENIGMA's forums - if they would listen at all. So there is no reason to post stuff like that here.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 25, 2014, 03:11:50 PM
But bashing GM in these forums is the same as bashing Mississippi gun laws in a Swedish kitchen decoration forum. All it does is gives bad rep to ENIGMA. We do listen to criticism, but YYG won't listen to criticism on ENIGMA's forums - if they would listen at all. So there is no reason to post stuff like that here.

Good point about the gun laws lol, but in this case ENIGMA stems from GM, it is a project that was started NOT because GM was an amazing product that dazzled - and note the GM in ENIGMA, don't you think it's normal people would make comparisons and say that certain things are better done in ENIGMA than GM especially when they are factual.  So now we are talking about RULES.....so then what this forum needs is rules which are official and written, on what people CAN and CANNOT discuss... IN my opinion, only ENIGMA related stuff should be discussed in the official forums, and any else in general, and the heated debates and certain delicate matters in closed member areas, that's just my opinion.  It's quite hard to find any given forum without some bashing of something at one point or another, it's how you do it and how you argument that makes you appear well informed or just a trouble maker / one line troll........I think it's not in what you say, but how you say it.
But no matter what people will always judge, good or bad, it seems the BAD takes priority and that is what people judge first...Welcome to planet earth, :P
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 25, 2014, 06:06:13 PM
But bashing GM in these forums is the same as bashing Mississippi gun laws in a Swedish kitchen decoration forum. All it does is gives bad rep to ENIGMA. We do listen to criticism, but YYG won't listen to criticism on ENIGMA's forums - if they would listen at all. So there is no reason to post stuff like that here.

I agree with this fully. I was never a fan of this aspect of the forum (and how relaxed trolling is (was?) on here in general).

This forum always came across as a bunch of teenagers living in the ghetto saying how crap it must be for the King and Queen living in their palace. King and Queen don't care, they are looking down on the ghetto having a good chuckle at the teenager's expense.

I always stongly pushed for ENIGMA to become ENIGMA and not a GM:S wanna be. ENIGMA will always be in the shadow of GM:S (while that is what it is trying to be - the backbone and funding isn't there). ENIGMA needs to forget about YYG and GM:S and become ENIGMA.

ENIGMA should keep its head held high and not even have any mention of YYG or GM:S on the forum - at all.

Think 'GM:S doesn't exist'.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: DaSpirit on September 25, 2014, 06:24:44 PM
I always stongly pushed for ENIGMA to become ENIGMA and not a GM:S wanna be. ENIGMA will always be in the shadow of GM:S (while that is what it is trying to be - the backbone and funding isn't there). ENIGMA needs to forget about YYG and GM:S and become ENIGMA.

ENIGMA should keep its head held high and not even have any mention of YYG or GM:S on the forum - at all.

Think 'GM:S doesn't exist'.
I have been telling this to JoshDreamland for a long time. He always responds by telling me that when he finishes his new compiler for ENIGMA, that new functionalities will be possible, but that he still wants compatibility. He's right in saying that GM compatibility is ENIGMA's selling point, but GM compatibility also weights it down. It doesn't matter if we have extensions, if our language is weak. In my opinion, we should get a more OOP language.

YYG has always been doing some silly stuff with GM:Studio. I think ENIGMA can and will branch off eventually. The issue is that we need more contributors and/or time, as well as better communication (if we do branch off, we would need a really detailed specification first). An LGM replacement is also required, because LGM plugins aren't that flexible, and Java itself is just bloated.

Also, it's nice to see you around here. You always seemed like a cool fellow at the GMC.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Goombert on September 25, 2014, 07:20:19 PM
Now lonewolff you are on the page that I can agree with, I have advocated the same for a while as well. But my issue is that people do find the GM compatibility a huge positive in the program, we have basically the whole program duplicated and to redo things now and take things in a new direction would be the end to that. Like I've said before I would first increase consistency in a lot of functions, such as color values. So the focus for me and Josh has always been to complete aspects of things which do not directly address/interfer breaking compatibility.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 25, 2014, 07:26:49 PM
Now lonewolff you are on the page that I can agree with, I have advocated the same for a while as well. But my issue is that people do find the GM compatibility a huge positive in the program, we have basically the whole program duplicated and to redo things now and take things in a new direction would be the end to that. Like I've said before I would first increase consistency in a lot of functions, such as color values. So the focus for me and Josh has always been to complete aspects of things which do not directly address/interfer breaking compatibility.

We always have been on the same page, if you remember back (to the deleted conversations - LOL my bad :) ) .

Yeah, GM compatibility is a positive (but is isn't the be all and end all). People get along fine using Construct, Unity, Unreal Engine, etc... And they are all their own beast. No reason my ENIGMA can't be it's own beast.

Some things can allready be done in ENIGMA that can't be achived with 'out of the box' GM:S and that is a great step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 25, 2014, 08:04:33 PM

ENIGMA should keep its head held high

Just to specify, the actual head between the shoulders and for good reasons :D Carry on ! :P

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and not even have any mention of YYG or GM:S on the forum - at all.

Think 'GM:S doesn't exist'.

That's very difficult mate, considering ENIGMA is an augmentation of the very product - GAME MAKER......So as long as there is a tie and discussion about how GMS does this and what we should do it's very hard to completely forget and discard conversations about GMS......I see nothing wrong with it, providing it stays civil, and no attacking an individual but only ideas and facts....We are not in a communist state :D :D :D
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 25, 2014, 08:22:02 PM

ENIGMA should keep its head held high

Just to specify, the actual head between the shoulders and for good reasons :D Carry on ! :P

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and not even have any mention of YYG or GM:S on the forum - at all.

Think 'GM:S doesn't exist'.

That's very difficult mate, considering ENIGMA is an augmentation of the very product - GAME MAKER......So as long as there is a tie and discussion about how GMS does this and what we should do it's very hard to completely forget and discard conversations about GMS......I see nothing wrong with it, providing it stays civil, and no attacking an individual but only ideas and facts....We are not in a communist state :D :D :D

True. As long as it is kept civil and accurate.

The amount of mis-information I see about things that are bandied about around here is huge. Things ranging from 'yeah maybe at a stretch' to complete falsehoods.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Rusky on September 25, 2014, 08:46:14 PM
/me braces for the 10-page Darkstar2 post "refuting" that this forum is full of misinformation
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 25, 2014, 09:10:48 PM
/me braces for the 10-page Darkstar2 post "refuting" that this forum is full of misinformation

Bring it - LOL :)

I'll then counter that with a 20 page post containing the facts with citations ;)

Darkstar2 is one of the guilty one's too, hehe! But, this isn't a member bashing post.

We have all gotta just dig a bit deeper before making crap up  (Y)

Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 25, 2014, 09:29:11 PM
I had a nice 25 page reply but then I asked myself.......

...... do I even care about what a person with a "resident troll badge" has to say ? lol.

For starters Rusky why don't you set the example before talking about others, you are the LAST person here who should even have an OPINION on this matter.
Seems every topic you are part of turns to crap :D


We all make mistakes in our assumptions, we are all human and that's why people who know better correct others, in a civil and polite way without being arrogant arseholes, and sorry to say but certain people here which I won't name have not always been civil and kind or good examples, and yes you are amongst them too in fact top position there matey, based on those who are still active members :D

EVERYONE can be considered guilty of the bashing or sometimes going over the top,
but as far as I'M bloody concerned as far as my take on GM, I am a PAID customer, long loyal customer and my rants and bashes are warranted and genuine. As far as other "mis-informations" well feel free to correct them, that's what a community is for :D  When I came here I knew far less about certain things than I do now, mainly C++, so yeah I've been wrong about certain things and I asked questions about certain terms and what not and got corrected......There is a difference between being genuinely interested and purposely spreading lies and shit which I don't do and sorry but I will strongly defend this.

The problem here is NOT the bashing or
misinformation it's the sometimes rude attitude and very uncivil, hostile tension between developers, members, etc.  That is a major turn-off......Not the occasional cussing..... But that was past, I just finished saying to lonewolff that this place is much more peaceful and tame.......was I wrong ? did I speak too soon ? :D

If you want more pages let me know - it's FREE on weekdays !
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: time-killer-games on September 25, 2014, 09:40:38 PM
How about we just ban everyone and ban ourselves. Because otherwise nothing will change. :p
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 25, 2014, 11:06:02 PM
I must admit. There seems to be less tension in the forums here now. So something is going in the right direction anyway :)
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: TheExDeus on September 26, 2014, 03:36:00 AM
I for one have lived happily with the thought "GM:S doesn't exist" for a long time. I haven't used GM for about 2-3 years now, and I exclusively use ENIGMA. I add functions which I need, without even checking if GM:S has something similar.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 26, 2014, 04:00:19 AM
LOL - speaking of keeping it civil. I am currently in an argument with Mark Alexander and Russel Kay as they are currently feeding bullshit to me on their 'public forum'.

Of course they are right in this case - NOT!
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Josh @ Dreamland on September 26, 2014, 08:43:06 PM
Not everyone that contributes to a project will be a shining ray of professionalism, especially in the world of open-source. We're non-profit; we don't have a job or a duty. As with most FOSS projects, ENIGMA is a meritocracy. I'm not going to ignore the elephant in the room and acknowledge that you're all talking largely about Robert. Not everything Robert says is a weathered pearl of maturity and insight. This doesn't matter; his intentions for the project are good, and overall he is having a positive impact on the course of the project. Should I tell him to shape up or ship out? That would be a huge mistake. I don't care if 90% of people who come here on scouting missions see the community in an "unprofessional" state and leave—my job here is to maximize contributing members first, and other members second. In essence, I'd trade a ten—hell, a hundred Aegars for one Robert. I apologize if it seems excessively blunt, but the truth often is. The same goes for any of our other contributors.

Now, if you are calling to question my maturity and professionalism, I'd appreciate if you confronted me about it directly. I acknowledge a tendency toward anarchy. As it relates to contributors, see my above remarks. As it relates to other members, well, other members are people, and people will be people. It's a grab bag.

I could ban people who don't spell out the word "you," or who don't audit their speech for respectfulness and positivity, but I believe in freedom of speech first, and a comfortable environment for everyone who might come along, second. If you have a problem with the subject matter or tone of a thread, don't visit it. If it's saying something genuinely slanderous or distasteful, report it. I have had to edit out sexual content in the past, and we've had one user who was actually persistently, unjustifiably rude enough to constitute a ban. This user literally said nothing constructive or truthful in any of his posts; all he did was bash other members. I try to avoid bans in general, but I weigh rules by their merit. I haven't seen anyone make this forum a genuinely intolerable place to be.

Again, if you feel that someone is doing that, please exercise the report button. I'm not going to issue warns for "GayMaker: Stupido" any faster than I will for "Internet Exploder" or "Micro$oft," and the same goes for any names you can come up with for "ENIGMA." Actually, some people were already calling it "enigger" in the past, which was inspired by a particularly rude member who, fortunately for the rest of the community, only directed his rage at ENIGMA, me, and other contributors. The words reflect poorly on their speakers. It isn't my job nor my place to delete things others say where they are lawful in doing so. I prefer to point out my thoughts on their behavior.

If there is something in particular you would like me to address, feel free to let me know. As stated, I don't issue bans for opinions.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 26, 2014, 09:35:15 PM
In defense of Robert, the only thing I see Robert doing wrong (even if you'd call it that), would be the colourful adjectives he might use occasionally.

I haven't really seen Robert do anything that would bring ENIGMA in to disreputre. I'd am pretty confident I speak for everyone when I say that Robert has gone well above and beyond anyone on this forum.

I have been away for 9 months, I come back and he is still chipping away like a Trojan.

As much as I am beginning to love TKG as well (the crazy bastard that he is :)), I just don't feel posts like this even belong on the forum http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=2217.msg22014#new

Just because something is 'non-profit' and completely controlled by volunteers, doesn't mean it can be professional.

Take a look at the Ogre3D community for example. It is structured, well thought out, and controlled. It is also one of the best communities on the planet (although it is severly dying off in activity these days).

Hell, I'd even put my hand up to be a moderator here to help clean up the place. If I do a crap job - kick me out. No harm done. ;)
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 26, 2014, 10:46:20 PM
In defense of Robert, the only thing I see Robert doing wrong (even if you'd call it that), would be the colourful adjectives he might use occasionally.

I see nothing wrong with emotions enhancing adjectives :D it's all in how it's used and how frequently. People should be judged by what they contribute, their knowledge, their behavior OVERALL - even a non code contributor, their conduct and interest, participation on the forum.  Actions speak louder than words.  Obviously here are certain words you want to avoid on a forum, such as derogatory / slander, personal/religion/race/ethnicity type of discussions :D  This is not broadcast television and the community is not bound by FCC :D  I think the forum needs a good disclaimer, and closed forum areas and you have all these concerns resolved. :D

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I haven't really seen Robert do anything that would bring ENIGMA in to disreputre. I'd am pretty confident I speak for everyone when I say that Robert has gone well above and beyond anyone on this forum.

Agreed, it is one thing to use an occasional SW when it is in context, and as long as you are not going into personal attacks territory.

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I have been away for 9 months, I come back and he is still chipping away like a Trojan.

Your timing was good actually he was busy for a while with his studies, and still was doing stuff whenever he could.....
but since you left there have been many good changes by sorlok and ego, make sure you are up to date on the latest portable and plugins :D

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As much as I am beginning to love TKG

lol !

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as well (the crazy bastard that he is :)), I just don't feel posts like this even belong on the forum http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=2217.msg22014#new

Just because something is 'non-profit' and completely controlled by volunteers, doesn't mean it can be professional.

People online say things ..... there have been topics opened by devs there....is it harmful ? no.  Weird ? yes.  But that's what closed forums are for, these kind of forums definitely should not be public view.  What should be public view are strictly the ENIGMA and anything ENIGMA / programming help related, along with a General Forum, work in progress, and finished games area, and other.
I do agree that these kind of topics and posts should not be public view, they might give a very wrong impression on the person writing it, and you can't blame people.  as sometimes even the most professional contributor or member might be tempted to reply to these topics and derail, including myself :D


Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 26, 2014, 11:19:10 PM
Josh earned a high level of respect with this post......Right on the money.
People often get judged for the bad things always, but never the good things, and especially when the good overpowers the bad.  Strong defender of freedom of expression.  This reminds me of people constantly complaining about others, people for example complaining of Howard Stern, yet they never miss a single show.....people complaining of a TV show yet never miss an episode....People complaining of a talk show host yet is a loyal viewer........whatever is done on the forum will never please anybody.

However, despite me agreeing with you Josh, I do think moderation has its place on a public forum, and here is how:

I think any kind of slander, defamatory remarks, attack to a person's character, integrity, any type of topics that could be liability for the site owners or anybody on the forum should be moderated.  Any attack to a person's race, religion, character, etc, has no place in such a community.....neither does it has its place in the source code !  Freedom of speech is one thing, and your constitution protects that freedom, BUT no constitution protects you from consequences of your words and acts.

I'm sure we can all have fun and let loose as a community and occasional derail but get quickly back on track, but certain things cross the line, the N word for example, or anything that could be deemed offensive for any prospects.  Imagine a skilled contributor joining and seeing the N word used in the source code and forum..........Certain VERY inappropriate shit was posted here that I don't even dare repeat textually in relation to a religion and *** chambers, etc, I think that topic was deleted by its author and that is a perfect example and BIG NO NO for any forum, and such comments could even warrant a site getting shut  down and authors prosecuted in some cases.

Moderation is good in such extreme cases, otherwise for anything else I am a strong supporter of free speech.  Certain people can be wrong and misinformation might come out of it, not everyone means it, that's why there are CIVIL ways to correct one another.  Cheers.

And about Robert, spot on !

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I'm not going to issue warns for "GayMaker: Stupido" any faster than I will for "Internet Exploder" or "Micro$oft," and the same goes for any names you can come up with for "ENIGMA." Actually, some people were already calling it "enigger" in the past, which was inspired by a particularly rude member who, fortunately for the rest of the community, only directed his rage at ENIGMA, me, and other contributors.

Ah yes does this user have a common dairy food product in his name ? LOL!

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The words reflect poorly on their speakers. It isn't my job nor my place to delete things others say where they are lawful in doing so. I prefer to point out my thoughts on their behavior.

Agree only to some extent, there are 2 types of users, those who occasionally derail and are good contributors both by code or thought or discussion, and then you have the trouble maker who joins only to flame others, insult, degrade, and is CLEAR and OBVIOUS shows no interest in your project or civil discussion, they are 100% trouble 0% worthy, do you really want that in your community as a site admin ?  Luckily here those concerned left, but  I stink as an admin it is your job to step in when things get extremely out of control to moderate, without necessarily censoring or banning but in certain situations say ENOUGH !  Of course you might claim otherwise that this is open forum open source, you are not a company ,etc....... It's a tough topic, and free speech is good but certain things definitely don't belong and cannot be good for your image, the site, the product, etc.  I'm not talking about the occasional cussing or derailments :D

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If there is something in particular you would like me to address, feel free to let me know. As stated, I don't issue bans for opinions.

When I joined this forum I recall some very heated very immature rants and fights between some developers, it was a major turn off.....what kept me here is my open mind and interest to the project and my disgust with the other side :D
Also clearly remember 1 or 2 individual who were on a clear rampage of insulting and degrading just about EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING.......there is a LIMIT as to what should be tolerated in my opinion.
These were posts INSIDE official forums.
Freedom of speech is good, it should belong in their own respective forums, closed and locked from view......but
insults, flames, fights, as I and many have read when joined INSIDE official forums does not send a good image.  Again, luckily things have calmed down quite a bit, and I know the users you are referring to.

Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: edsquare on September 27, 2014, 01:24:29 AM
@Darkstar2:

Race, gender, sexual orientation, disabilities are not the same as religión and I resent your remark about we insulting you on this regard, neither I or anyone else EVER insulted you, because you are a fellow human and deserve respect, but your ideas and beliefs are not granted that same respect automatically.

Now if you think that by not respecting your ideas and/or beliefs someone is insulting you then the onus is on you and you alone; if ideas deserved respect shouldn't we respect the homofobe? and what about the racist? or the sexist? What about the bully that drives a homosexual kid to suicide? shouldn't we respect his ideas and beliefs too?

No mate, ideas do not automatically deserve respect, even when utered by people we love and respect, this doesn't mean I don't respect the person, only some of his/hers ideas.

But fear not, you can slander me on PM or in public all you want I wont respond to any post by you anymore.

Have a good life.

PS: To the rest of the community.- The reason religion, politics, and some other stuff is usually prohibited as a topic in most forums is because it can quickly degenerate in a flame war, not because it infringes any law.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Goombert on September 27, 2014, 03:16:37 AM
I can't view the link Lonewolff, what was that all about?
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 27, 2014, 04:09:40 AM
@Darkstar2:

Race, gender, sexual orientation, disabilities are not the same as religión and I resent your remark about we insulting you on this regard,

For someone going to University and is quite smart, I am shocked about what I read, you are way smarter than that......but your post to me strikes me as ignorant ! but where the bloody hell did I mention that I was insulted in that regard ? Please quote me and I will correct myself. I was in no way insinuating anything, and was not referring to me at all, nor did I mention YOU or being insulted.  Sorry but you took it all wrong.

I was talking in the general sense, insults, flaming......I WAS NOT FUCKING TALKING ABOUT ME!!! I was referring to stuff I was reading when I first joined!
Nobody insulted me or my views on the topic. what we discussed is passed and finished and we moved on......you completely twisted what I said and ASSUMED.......Sad. and if I was giving examples, I certainly was not talking about you.....

There are ways to disagree with someone's point of view, and have a civil discussion - that is a general sense nothing to do with any past flames between us.

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neither I or anyone else EVER insulted you, because you are a fellow human and deserve respect, but your ideas and beliefs are not granted that same respect automatically.

I know that, you just started something that is unnecessary. Where is the problem?

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Now if you think that by not respecting your ideas and/or beliefs someone is insulting you then the onus is on you and you alone; if ideas deserved respect shouldn't we respect the homofobe? and what about the racist? or the sexist? What about the bully that drives a homosexual

I don't give a pile of crap if people don't respect my views, the point I was making is that insulting one's religion, attacking one's personal character, slander, defamation, ethnicity/race, hate, etc, are amongst the many things that DO NOT belong on a forum, leave me and our past out of this, I am just responding to the discussion the OP started. Has NOTHING to do with me or our disagreements.

if we are to come across as a friendly and helpful community......there are many other places where these things should be done and said.


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kid to suicide? shouldn't we respect his ideas and beliefs too?

That's another story.  It is one thing to discuss someone's beliefs, it is another to say things that could be hurtful to others.
Again in the general sense.....

Racism, hate, homophobia, attacks, slander, constant trolling, flaming,  I don't think this kind of horse manure belongs on this community.  When I joined, this is most of what I saw.......between certain people not here anymore.

1st amendment or freedom of expression or whatever, protects your freedom to express, even if it offends, but does not shield you from consequences of your words.  The whole topic is about how to make this place attractive and welcoming...

if you think that adopting the "anything can go" "anything can be said" attitude,
That is YOUR opinion.......we can all disagree, but don't put words in my goddamned mouth.

We would NEVER be able to have this kind of discussion on the GMC and majority of other forums, including open projects.

I believe keeping the fights and hate where the fuck it belongs, NOT HERE.
I am saying is as part of the discussion, not implying you, our past, our discussions or anything........

You took what I said completely out of context.  I have long even forgotten about that other topic, until you brought it up again.

You even admitted to me in PM and on public forum that you agreed these type of discussions should not be discussed and the reasons why.......

Peace.

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But fear not, you can slander me on PM or in public all you want I wont respond to any post by you anymore.

Read and digest what was written once again, don't try to get in the middle of something that had nothing to do with you OR our discussions or anybody else.

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PS: To the rest of the community.- The reason religion, politics, and some other stuff is usually prohibited as a topic in most forums is because it can quickly degenerate in a flame war, not because it infringes any law.

I never implied otherwise, but slander, defamatory remarks, attack to one's character/integrity, false accusations, the rest, is another story, hate, racism, and the rest, some countries have laws, including the UK.....if you want to keep a forum friendly and welcoming, which has potential for getting people from many countries, you have to apply common sense.  I don't mind debating with you anytime, but shit should not be done here, even less from public view......Some people say I should not even feed the trolls or bother responding, but won't stay quiet and not defend against this crap.
lonewolff can handle this far better lol!

I too agreed with you that religion and some hot topics are best not discussed because it can degenerate, so what's the point of this ?  It degenerates because of people like you.....otherwise had no problem discussing this with anybody else, I do it all the time offline, and I get along with everyone discussing these issues.

Cheers

Feel free to discuss ENIGMA or anything else with me......but I won't be discussing any hot topics or anything outside the realm of technology, enigma, etc, I can take the heat, but personal attacks, I will defend against.

or I will discuss with people with open mind !  I do apologise for ever discussing this with you as I see now why it was a problem and the trauma you went through, you should have just stayed the fuck out of the conversation or told me to stop discussing it with you I would have respected it..........
Sad
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 27, 2014, 06:32:16 PM
I was halfway through writing a wall of text on this thread about this last night, but iOS8 decided to crap itself just as I hit 'post'.

So here is the much abbreviated version.

ENIGMA is not just the source code. It is everything. It is probably more so this forum, than the source.

Take 2 scenarios -

1) Walk in to a burger shop.

"Here is your burger, sir. We threw in some extra fries for you  (Y)"

Customer comes back because of the friendly service.

2) Walk in to a burger shop.

"Here your 'fuckin' burger you black 'nigga' cunt! GTFO, before I bust a cap in your ass!"

Customer loves the burger. Best one he has ever haid. Never goes back to the shop because of the appauling attitude.


#2 is the perception newcomers have of this forum. Take it from me. Take it from people who have not returned.

I want what is best for the project. Project being the entire thing, not the C++ project files you download.

If it takes a 'fork' of ENIGMA, I am all for it and I am happy to drive the ship. (Obviously adhereing to the current licence - so don't even go there if you are tempted. This topic isn't about licencing.)

Just my 2 cents though. Essentially I am still an outsider :)
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Aegar on September 27, 2014, 06:45:35 PM
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I don't care if 90% of people who come here on scouting missions see the community in an "unprofessional" state and leave—my job here is to maximize contributing members first, and other members second.

I can respect this and I understand that you would never give up Robert or any other contributing member (I don't think it would be right to kick them out either) but here's a question for you: is it a primary goal of yours to increase ENIGMA's profile as a viable game engine for hobby and commercial devs? What good is the best engine in the world if no one cares enough to use it?

Or from another angle, what is the ultimate reason for ENIGMA's existence?
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 27, 2014, 06:51:24 PM
^^ That is exactly what I am getting at  (Y)

If there is no care of the entire management of the project, what is the purpose of the project itself?

Might as well be a project that sits somewhere in the Documents folder on your hard drive rather than be published on the net.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: TheExDeus on September 27, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
If it wasn't on the net, then the developers wouldn't have found it. I personally also don't really care whether someone uses ENIGMA or not (and I am so tired of saying this). As Josh has pointed out millions of times already - this is a FOSS and we do it not because "we want to change the world" or some other stupid start-up slogan. We do it because we can and we personally want to. It's like when a person wants to make a painting, but he doesn't plan to sell it. We are not a company, and this, in fact, isn't a product.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Josh @ Dreamland on September 27, 2014, 07:43:26 PM
The reason for ENIGMA's existence is precisely the reason the community is in such a state. Yoyo Games is a corporation. The function of a corporation is to maximize the profit of its shareholers. A burger shop that calls its customers "nigga cunts" is failing on that front: customers are required to draw a profit, and rudeness deters customers. ENIGMA is instead an open-source project; it exists according to the desires of its contributors. Because it is open-source, it receives contributions from people of a whole spectrum of motives.

Harri develops for himself. As a hobby, he said, in this thread I believe. He develops ENIGMA because he wants to use it.

When I was young, I developed ENIGMA because I wanted to use it—I wanted a Game Maker that Yoyo wasn't in charge of. Now, when I develop, I do so just to finish what I started.

The person who wrote this site, a2h (currently notachair), contributed the layout for three reasons: he liked where the project was going, he and I were friends, and he wanted something to add to his professional profile.

Ironically, Robert is the only active contributor right now who does so with the purpose of drawing a community.

If it were up to me, our site would look more like other open-source compiler sites (https://gcc.gnu.org/) which you might find equally lackluster. ENIGMA is a compiler. LateralGM is an IDE. These forums are a place we have users discuss both—I because I encourage open-source development, Harri because he likes not being the only person working on ENIGMA, and Robert because... well, I'm honestly not sure why Robert does the things he does.

I can't speak to other big contributors' motives. Maybe sorlok has a comment on why he puts up with us? As far as I can tell, Egofree sees that the project is just under the threshold of "good enough to compile this game," and so he pours time into pushing it over. If you asked any one of them if they'd like a bigger community, they'd all say yes. But it isn't the end of the world to any of us (except Robert? Maybe?) if no one else ever posts here again. If we can make this community more accommodating, I'm happy to do so—provided it doesn't infringe on the less ephemeral users' rights to be here.

That said, the burger stand analogy further breaks down at what happens when the employee mouths off to customers. I can't fire Robert and hire a replacement. If I could find people who wanted to work for Robert's wage, I'd be out doing so. Since I can't, yes, this community functions as our only net. I'm not sure what it says that such a substantial fraction of our community are contributors; I see it as a positive. I won't speak for the other contributors further, but I'll point out that they're still around.

In essence, a burger stand has easily replaceable employees and serves to maximize shareholder value, which involves maximizing consumer goodwill. ENIGMA has non-reimbursed, at-will contributors, and for its health needs to maximize contributor value first, which is largely independent of community politics.


Now, all that said, I probably come across as a little negative. Let me share you the good news: we are a rarity among open-source projects in that we don't kick people out for having an opinion. I am frequently stunned by how amazingly, cruelly rude developers are on open-source projects on GitHub. Nothing paints a better picture of what I am trying to convey than any arbitrary post on a GitHub repo I used to watch, whose name I'll withhold because I'm not here to point fingers. ENIGMA contributors, including Robert, are exceptionally kind; not a whole lot of projects have developers who will drop what they are doing to investigate an issue posted over an IRC. The developers on the GitHub repository I have in mind will barely investigate actual bug reports before closing the issue with a snide remark about how it's likely the user's fault. I've been impressed by Robert's ability to respond calmly and helpfully to some pretty dumb posts on our tracker, over and over. Many developers forget that the body of users is not one entity which can remember being informed why an issue is not a bug.

And let's face it: have you two never gotten into a scuffle with the moderation team of products you do pay for? And how quick were they to remind you that you can be banned at any moment for any reason?

There's a certain merit to having people feel that they can speak freely without being banned, ridiculed, or otherwise cast out. If nothing else, we have that here.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 27, 2014, 08:06:23 PM
This is a FOSS and we do it not because "we want to change the world" or some other stupid start-up slogan. We do it because we can and we personally want to.

Extensible Non-Interpreted Game Maker Augmentation - Sounds pretty slogany to me (and a bit gay FWIW) ;)


I just don't get the motivation of the project then, sorry. A fork it is then (Y)

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That said, the burger stand analogy further breaks down at what happens when the employee mouths off to customers. I can't fire Robert and hire a replacement. If I could find people who wanted to work for Robert's wage, I'd be out doing so. Since I can't, yes, this community functions as our only net. I'm not sure what it says that such a substantial fraction of our community are contributors; I see it as a positive. I won't speak for the other contributors further, but I'll point out that they're still around.

No way was I pointing the finger at Robert (or anyone in particular, for that matter). Just an every day style example or what I was trying to get at.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 27, 2014, 08:53:32 PM
No way was I pointing the finger at Robert (or anyone in particular, for that matter). Just an every day style example or what I was trying to get at.

Exactly same situation as you, I was not pointing at nobody in particular and yet get lashed at ...  This happens a lot on forums lonewolff.

and I think more and more as this topic advances proves the OP's point further and why some restructuring and moderation might not be a bad thing.
Every community be it from a open sourced project, free project, hobby or whatever, should have some rules, for everybody's best interest.

When I joined here there was hostility,
flaming, 1 or 2 users insulting and flaming / breaking down every post people made, it was NOT attractive or welcoming in my opinion. 

but I decided to stay because I liked the program.  But I'm sure a lot of people would not.  I don't know why some people feel targeted, when it is clear we are talking in the general sense about things that are not tolerated normally on ANY forum/community.

If one adopts the anything goes anything can be said attitude, that only opens doors to situations like these and some observed in the past.

Nobody said anything about firing or banning anybody nobody was pointing a finger at Robert, or anybody. Lonewolff, I guess moderation or not, you have to be very careful voicing your opinions around here. (or anywhere) :D Some forums are obviously over moderated and ban people on ridiculous things (you just proved a good example there with the avatar thing :D)  does not mean this place has to be like that...

Friendly community ay ? lol !    But it is a learning experience because eventually you learn that you should avoid certain topics and stick to the official forums ....

You will always clash with people on a forum no matter what.

That said, anybody who joins here and points a finger at any user in particular, or notices the negativity, then do this........since it is easy to judge the bad first and good last.....do a search on that particular user, all his posts and see how much this user has contributed positive and constructive topics/posts vs. the nonconstructive ones.  Freedom goes a long way, but if it were up to me running this place, open source or not hobby or not, I would not allow racism, homophobia, personal attacks, excessive flaming, and ANYTHING that creates a hostile environment.

As to Robert it is clear that he has contributed more good to this project than anything else, and we all derail from time to time and get carried away, but what sets the difference is that some people can quickly go back on track, that separates the good user from the really bad user who is ALL about flaming, disturbing, attacking, like this place had before, and those users have not been active....it is THAT category of users that don't give a good image to a community, not the occasional side tracking, cussing, fooling around....... I think one should be able to make a distinction.

To me ANY topic would be accepted, anything goes, in their respective forums, but crossing the line into personal territory (threats against others, attacking their person, their family, character, spreading lies, etc.I would not tolerate that !) there is a difference between disagreeing with someone and attacking their person and being downright mean to everyone.  I guess different people have different opinions on how a community should be like........ :P

It doesn't fucking matter if a site is run by a corporation or hobbyists,they are the same human beings behind the screens...it all comes down to common sense in the end.  Wanting a friendly community, civil, professional, is that such a bad thing or is it perceived as anarchist, tyranny, etc.....So if ANYTHING goes then this means that the users attacked have a right to derail and defend themselves, it goes both ways.

Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: TheExDeus on September 28, 2014, 06:25:29 AM
The reason Robert is usually mentioned, is because he is the one that originally was very rash on the forums. Before him the whole thing was still silly, but it wasn't really offensive or aggressive. Robert for a while was like that, but in a year or so he has changed for the better. Now he is very helpful and even might call professional (as Josh pointed out in his post).
We also don't have any discussions among developers that might be perceived as infighting. We do discussions on features or bugs and so on, but it's only normal. Usually people wouldn't see that as that would happen in locked forums, but we do it publicly, as we encourage feedback.

So the ending questions is - What is exactly the thing that needs to be restructured? Just moderation for swear words? I guess we can do that, but as we personally aren't affected by that anymore (read: not 12yorld), then we don't almost notice that. Should we moderate for other company/product bashing? Like many here (usually not developers, the only dev who actually bashes them is Robert) bash YYG, GM:S, Microsoft, Apple etc. Prettier site? As most know there was one very pretty which never went live. Josh doesn't want this to seem like a product or even worse, a finished product, mostly because that will attract a lot of people asking why X doesn't work or why Y isn't added in ENIGMA in the next 48h hours. People, especially comming from GMC, don't know what FOSS is. They expect from us the same things (or more) they expect from a company like YYG. And that is not what we want.

But at the same time I want that new site online for MYSELF. So Josh, can we maybe put the site live, with just giant letter "THIS IS PRE-BETA!" or something?
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Josh @ Dreamland on September 28, 2014, 09:18:22 AM
Maybe as a Christmas present. I do hate web development.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: TheExDeus on September 28, 2014, 11:17:11 AM
Can't we get another guy on it? a2h probably moved on, but maybe he is willing to help. It's his design/code after all. Maybe he could even do some improvements on the design.
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 01:11:54 PM
The reason Robert is usually mentioned, is because he is the one that originally was very rash on the forums.

There are some genuinely mean people and there are people who might appear or act mean on the outside, for some reason my gut instinct always told me that deep inside he's not mean and that he's helpful.  Usually one could easily distinguish those on a forum, as he was not like that in every single post.  When I joined I asked questions, and I remember a particular user flaming and insulting / degrading everyone he was 0% constructive 100% mean/flame, all the time, so it SHOULD be fairly easy to seed out the bad weed :D

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Before him the whole thing was still silly, but it wasn't really offensive or aggressive.

I remember Cheeseboy's posts and his nice comments on ENIGMA...... So ok maybe now things have changed for the better but imagine new people coming to see devs fight and talk trash about their own product and the work of others, how the hell do you think this resonates to new people, will they say "WOW this is an amazing project and community" or will they simply dismiss this as a kiddies playground.......that's the question.

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So the ending questions is - What is exactly the thing that needs to be restructured? Just moderation for swear words?

Fuck no :D You want examples ????

Here are some, it's all about common sense:

1) People who abuse and CONSTANTLY flame developers or other users, and are of absolute no use (such as the one person I witnessed when I joined), those usually are not contributors and trouble from the first day they join.....Those are the #1 candidates for moderation or ban.

2) Spewing garbage that could be a liability for the site and the project.  Inciting illegal acts (do I even need to give examples here !?!?!?) inciting violence, hate, slander, defamatory remarks on a dev/user, making personal attacks against a person, homophobia/racism, etc.   These kinds of discussions/remarks have absolutely no room in the official forums of the product, you can disagree with devs, other users, you can be harsh in your opinions, the line goes quite far, but there HAS to be a line that one cannot cross otherwise you just allow anything and things can quickly spiral out of control !  People who still think moderation is unnecessary have probably not much experience in forums or have not experienced situations that require it. 

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company/product bashing? Like many here (usually not developers, the only dev who actually bashes them is Robert) bash YYG, GM:S, Microsoft, Apple etc. Prettier site? As most know there was one very pretty which never went live. Josh doesn't want this to seem like a product or even worse, a

In a way YES.  BTW, there HAS been bashing from devs, inside source code and on forum, I recall clearly comments made against YYG and new nicknames given to YYG and GM/GMS, long before I started using some of them as I thought it was kinda funny at the time, (and still do).  But there is a line to draw, bashing a product when you argument your statements....

For example I bloody hate what YYG did with GM and the direction they took, their arrogance, their responses to people who asked them about features, removed features, etc, their removing of some functions, their telling people make your own, the way they handle certain things in GMS........so there is a difference on the intentions and context.  Then there is straight / random bashing without any arguments, just bashing for the kicks of it, probably by people who never even bothered using the product, have not paid for it, or are newbies who can't learn how to use it. I think it is fair to assume that most of us here who bashed the product have been long time users of GM and paid users......I've known about GM since its beginning, it actually started as an animation progam......I've started USING GM at version 5 and been a paying user all the way.  It's one thing to bash a product, but when is he line crossed ?
Making derogatory/degrading/racist/hurtful comments towards a person..... I think in all fairness most people here who bashed a product or company made solid and valid arguments.  Others might not agree with point of views though.  I could give MANY valid reasons why I stopped using GMS, but some kiddies attached to GMS might strongly disagree with me, because usually people who do, don't raise the bar and won't ever discover WHY......Catch the clown galore and boring ass games.  How many of the user base of GM make EXCEPTIONAL quality games???? The majority ? How many truly push the limits ?  I don't think it is the majority, and if I'm wrong correct me....
Common sense......you moderate when you see a situation can spiral out of control.  Of course some mods on forums ban or close topics very quickly, that is BAD moderation.  I've seen cases of people being banned or moderated for no valid reasons, whilst I've seen other people get away with a lot of shit, but they agree and suck up to mods and admins/company......(sounds familiar??? :D)
That is an example of BAD moderation and power abuse :D  But whether an open source / hobby project or closed source, EVERY forum should have rules. Otherwise no rules then anything goes........Then don't be surprised to see topics like these and any negative image you might get.....

As far as some people making comment that we should not talk about YYG or GM, that is difficult considering ENIGMA is tied to GM :D and the reason of ENIGMA was not because GM was exceptional and flawless....... :P

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finished product, mostly because that will attract a lot of people asking why X doesn't work or why Y isn't added in ENIGMA in the next 48h hours. People, especially comming from GMC, don't know what FOSS is. They expect from us the same things (or more) they expect from a company like YYG. And that is not what we want.

So use 127 point font, red big and bold and
make it clear that this is WORK IN PROGRESS.  I have seen VERY negative comments against ENIGMA by people outside this forum, by the product itself, some very harsh terms even used by GM devs themselves..... So why the bloody hell can't we call out what deserves to be called out ?

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But at the same time I want that new site online for MYSELF. So Josh, can we maybe put the site live, with just giant letter "THIS IS PRE-BETA!" or something?

lmao! then you scare people away thinking the product is absolutely bug ridden ,does not work and not worth using...... In my opinion work in progress is better.  One could make fully functional games in ENIGMA, in certain situations more work is needed......this project will not cater to those who are newbies , D&D only and don't have minimal coding knowledge or work around skills.....People might join thinking ENIGMA is 100% compatible with GM, I think there are certain things that should be very obvious and documented on the main site, in nice big bold letters.......127 points will do! :D Then people who complain have no excuse they didn't read :D unless they are totally blind !

Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: edsquare on September 29, 2014, 07:31:47 PM
@ Darkstar2:

Since I did mistreat you in public I believe this needs to be said in public too:

Code: [Select]
My apologies, maybe I did read too much between the lines, if so then please accept my most sincere aplogies and lets move on.

About our debate:

1.- I was baptized Roman Catholic too.

2.- I have no trauma about religion (luckily), but I do tend to come too strong on certain topics.

3.- I have no grudge against you, I just read too much on your comment.

I too believe that certain amount of moderation might be good for a community but it also can get out of hand really quickly and become a dictatorship (Been there sufered that).

Granted, next time I will remeber to ask you if I understood correctly your intentions.

Do we kiss and make up? or do we kiss and make out?  :D
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 29, 2014, 07:51:32 PM
Do we kiss and make up? or do we kiss and make out?  :D

I'd say 'make out'. It would show a propper commitment  (Y)
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: edsquare on September 29, 2014, 07:53:05 PM
Do we kiss and make up? or do we kiss and make out?  :D

I'd say 'make out'. It would show a propper commitment  (Y)

Lol!
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 29, 2014, 09:38:04 PM
As explained in PM, it's all forgotten and water under the bridge.  I was just being general the same way lone and others were using general terms and not targeting anybody, some people might feel targeted due to stuff they said before, but in all honesty I never had you even in mind.

So no problem moving along, all forgotten.

no need for making up/out or what not (I'm straight !) :D
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: lonewolff on September 29, 2014, 09:38:56 PM
Is that a tongue I see? ":P"
Title: Re: Restructuring the Community
Post by: edsquare on September 29, 2014, 10:31:57 PM
As explained in PM, it's all forgotten and water under the bridge.  I was just being general the same way lone and others were using general terms and not targeting anybody, some people might feel targeted due to stuff they said before, but in all honesty I never had you even in mind.

So no problem moving along, all forgotten.

no need for making up/out or what not (I'm straight !) :D

How do you know if you've never tried it? ;-)