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General fluff => Off-Topic => Topic started by: time-killer-games on July 11, 2014, 01:28:59 PM

Title: Holes in everything...
Post by: time-killer-games on July 11, 2014, 01:28:59 PM
There are many holes in literally every premature conclusion as to how this universe exists. Please forgive me I'm too lazy to have a citation for everything. I'll make each subject matter a different post to play it safe on the per-post character limit.

I) Protestant Christianity
Christians ignore a ton of major flaws in their belief system. They acknowledge these things exist, but don't call them "flaws" without giving reasons because there aren't any.

A) The mark of the Beast is 666. There is a footnote under the New International Version (NIV) translation stating a clear contradiction that some ancient records say the mark is 616 instead of 666. If God were truly God he could at least preserve his Holy Word to be a tad more consistent.

B) Depending on the verse reference and translation, the cloth Jesus was wearing when hung on the cross was either scarlet (red) or purple, which are not the same color. There are multiple mentions of that cloth he was wearing, in the same exact bible version, whichever you choose to view, within the exact same translation you'll find this self-contradiction.

C) The Old Testament prophesies the Messiah to never break a single bone during his future visit on earth. Now, in the New Testament, aka this so called future, they the writers of the four Gospels try to make it sound consistent with that prophesy but failed miserably. The two thieves who were crucified beside Jesus had their legs broken so they could die quicker and more painfully. However they didn't do that to Jesus because he died quickly before they had a chance to do the same to him. So they stabbed his gut with a spear instead, to verify his death.

Please note he probably died sooner due being whipped with chains of hard metals and bone, he was kicked, etc many other forms of physical abuse the two thieves  fortunately didn't have to go through. Since Jesus had nails going directly into his hands and feet as mentioned specifically in every translation of the Protestant Bible, his bones were broken indeed. An epic failure of the storytellers'. Hands and feet have very fragile bones. Try sticking a huge 3-inch diameter'd nail anywhere in there and watch them break.

D) Many more yet to be listed. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: time-killer-games on July 11, 2014, 01:44:24 PM
II) Catholic Christianity
Catholics have (in theory) even more holes in their faith than Protestants, even with the fact Catholics have been around MUCH longer!

A) What kind of "just" or "perfect" God would give his holy priests the reputation of general rapists and child molesters? 'Nuff said.

B) Pray to Mary? Pray to Holy Saints in Heaven? If a saint in heaven doesn't forgive me neither will Jesus? That's right, they have all the books the Protestants do but with "additional" books the Protestants don't. In the Protestant Bible, it's very clear and blatant (especially in Acts and Paul's letters) you don't pray to anyone but Jesus Himself (or the Trinity). But the "other" books the Protestants dropped and the Catholics kept don't say that at all. Your etenerinty doesn't have to be completely due to the Trinity's final decision, heck, what if someone who's in heaven doesn't like you? You're going to hell babe.

C) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: time-killer-games on July 11, 2014, 01:58:38 PM
III) Mormon Christianity
This is the most recently founded flavor of the Christian faith.

A) The founder of this religion had a "vision" from an *angel* named Moroni. The angel told him that Modern Christianity has been corrupted and the angel told him how it should've really been.

Galatians 1:6-9 in both Protestant and Catholic Christianity, which came long before the the Mormon faith says:
Quote
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Moroni was an angel from heaven, so to speak. Why Would God say 2000 years ago "let even angel from haven be cursed if it perverted my Gospel" and then an Angel comes down and does just that. Neither perception I consider correct, but imagining if one were correct, which would be more likely? Protestants/Catholics, or Mormons?

B) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: Darkstar2 on July 11, 2014, 01:58:54 PM
I will sum this up in a very short sentence.

I DO believe in God, and I am catholic, mind you I don't go to Church every Sunday  and last time I was in one was ages ago, yet I am do have faith. That said, religion is man made, and scriptures were man written so there is bound to have been some misinterpretations or flaws along the line.

That said, looking at what is going around the world, and what is written in scripture you could clearly see some amazingly accurate information, but there have been many version of said scripture so again are you surprised of any bias of information or flaws along the way in the translations ?

I'm not.

:D
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: time-killer-games on July 11, 2014, 02:15:45 PM
You'll like this one then Darkstar2 ;)

IV) Evolution / Darwinism
While this is the most likely candidate of truth, it has a colorful variety of holes of it's own.

A) People and dinosaurs lived together long before the extinction, as ancient records, cave paintings, mosaics, and architectures have shown. Hard core evolutionists try to hide this from the public because they don't know what to make of it. Check out this interesting article, written by an evolutionist I might add...

http://searchwarp.com/swa791121-Did-Ancient-People-Believe-That-Dinosaurs-Were-Their-Contemporaries.htm

I hate how he words it. "Did ancient people really "believe" they could see dinosaurs?" As if something you could physically see, observe, describe and make artwork of so scientifically accurate, was something at all psychological or "all in their head". The fact is we lived among dinosaurs. Instead of acting like evolution is disproved by it and hiding it from the public or writing skeptical articles, we could just brainstorm a logical explanation behind it. It doesn't prove or disprove anything. We just had a slight misconception of how it all played out which is no big deal, won't shake the theory one bit if you ask me. Yes it's a hole, but I wouldn't call it permanent hole as we have a lot yet to discover in this universe.

B) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 11, 2014, 02:58:27 PM
To TKG:

ALL religions and all gods are man made, if there's a god he sucks at:

Management.- The natural disasters, the way the religion is a bussines more than anything else, etc.

Design.- Search for the Laryngeal Nerve of a Giraffe, it is a really bad enginering design, also who in his right mind puts a recreation area nex to the waste disposal plant?

Justice.- Infinite punishment for finite crimes, I'm not perfect but I would never throw my son in a dungeon (let alone hell) for not loving me and me alone. Homosexuality is an abomination? Thinking someone is hot/sexy is a crime? You should stone your rebeld children in the town square?

Comunication.- How come there are so many versions of the "holly" "sacred" book? Not only the judeo/christian/muslim versions, the Rig-Veda, the Bhagavad Gita among miriad others.

Originality.- Most of the judeo/christian mithology is a blatant copy of previous mithologies: Noe-Gilgamesh, Jesus-Mithras-Osiris-Dionysus, among tons of other examples.

Veracity/Accuracy.- The earth is not flat, the firmament is not a dome, the stars are not fixed or hanging from/to anything, humanity does not descend from a single pair of ancestors, the animals were not "created" in their current form, there is no way a wooden boat big enough to hold all the animals of the earth (at least a pair of each, in some cases seven animals) could survive the supposed flood, how did the cangaroos reach the arch and got back to Australia without leaving bodies behind? where did Noe store all the food for the animals? (even conceding the hypothesis of the carnivores becoming vegetarian the plants would not last that long fresh) How did the fresh/salt water fishes survive the colapse of their ecosystem? When the waters receded there was not a single square meter of fertile land anywhere, how did Noe plant anything? how did the ecosystem and mankind recover fast enough for the babel tower myth to take place?

I rest my case.

Yes I am an atheist, but that wasn't always the case, in fact I'm an ordain mynister.  :o
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: time-killer-games on July 11, 2014, 03:15:05 PM
Those are some great points edsquare but I won't list them for the following reasons.

1) Christians have the mentality that all things are possible with God so just anyone could make the excuse for example the kangaroos didn't make fossils outside of Australia for the same reason it rained frogs in Egypt. The "all things are possible with God" excuse.

2) you didn't list a contradiction between two points within the religion. The contradictions you listed are between the religion and scientific reality. With any deity that's utterly in control of everything. Comparing a religion with real science won't mean anything to a Christian. Christians (like all other religious folk) don't believe in "science". It's a foreign concept to them.

Edit.

I'm aware of the Giraffe issue and how it has a special vein to prevent it's head from exploding when it bends down for a drink I knew you were talking about that without googling it. The funny thing is when I went to private school they mentioned that specifically as not as a stupid/sloppy design, but as an intelligent design and to make the radical point to somehow disprove evolution. Here you are using the same example to argue the opposite. I personally agree with you but it's crazy what these loonies can come up with. xD

PS I used to be a christian and therefore I have a lot of close Christian friends in my personal life.It's so fucking annoying but I have to act like I believe around them. I have to force myself to not curse and not be anything like who I really am just so they'll stay my friends. It's annoying as fuck. Everyone who I know who aren't Christians from public school hate me because I've in times past told them they were going to hell as of before my braincells budded. So it's like I admit to being an atheist now and lose all my friends or suck it up indefinitely.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 11, 2014, 03:52:02 PM
Those are some great points edsquare but I won't list them for the following reasons.

1) Christians have the mentality that all things are possible with God so just anyone could make the excuse for example the kangaroos didn't make fossils outside of Australia for the same reason it rained frogs in Egypt. The "all things are possible with God" excuse.

2) you didn't list a contradiction between two points within the religion. The contradictions you listed are between the religion and scientific reality. With any deity that's utterly in control of everything. Comparing a religion with real science won't mean anything to a Christian. Christians (like all other religious folk) don't believe in "science". It's a foreign concept to them.

Edit.

I'm aware of the Giraffe issue and how it has a special vein to prevent it's head from exploading when it bends down for a drink I knew you were talking about that without googling it. The funny thing is when I went to private school they mentioned that specifically as not as a stupid/sloppy design, but as an intelligent design and to make the radical point to somehow disprove evolution. Here you are using the same example to argue the opposite. I personally agree with you but it's crazy what these loonies can come up with. xD

No it's not a vein in the giraffe but a nerve that goes from the brain all the way down the neck to the torso and then up to connect to the laringe.

Also about your evolution and dinosaurs point:

In Science you never dismis some evidence because it would disprove your Hypothesis, you take the facts and then revise and adjust your hypothesis to take in account those facts.

We live with Dinosaurs today my friend, in fact every time you eat a turkey, or chicken, hear a bluejay or watch an Ostrich you're seeing a Dinosaur. But did ever a human being live among the gigantic ancestors of the birds? No, unless you count the Flintstones and/or the folks at the creation museum, in the caves of Laxcaux you see beautyful and very accurate paintings of the animals the people of that time hunted, if they had seen a Tryceratops, or a T-Rex, don't you think they would have painted them? Every single "evidence" of Dinosaurs living among humans has been thorougly debunked.

If you're searching for inconsistencies in the Bible you need only make one stop http://atheism.about.com/od/biblecontradictionserror/

The best is why not a single Christian follows all the commandments? there are 613 of them if I recall correctly.

Check this out: http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.pdf

Also do some research about the ten commandments, right now I dont remember where do they appear as we recognize them as cast in stone but when they do they are not the ones you know.

Also how about Thou shalt not kill? and then Moses and his God go around killing and raping all over the place.

Edit: And in regards to the God versus Science controversy, would not an almighty, allknowing deity give more factual/accurate descriptions of it's "creation"? Would an allpowerfull deity give us a brain, curiosity, and reason only to tell us not to use them to understand the "creation" it made for us? Would He/She/It dictate a book? or would He/She/It find a better way to express it's dictates? Why has He/She/It never contradicted the human errors in interpreting the book? Why is there a commandment about mixed fabrics and the color of the satchels but not about not rapping children? (Something not only the catholic church is guilty of)
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: time-killer-games on July 11, 2014, 04:04:21 PM
Something I know you're not understanding about my point on dinosaurs. Some evolved. While others didn't based on their ecosystems. We see birds, yes, those were dinosaurs. But it's not like we can say all dinosaurs evolved into birds. The ones who were living amoung humans must have died off or had their evolution delayed due to what was required for them to live on in their ecosystem. To say all dinosaurs became birds over the same time span and rate as time went on is like saying we aren't living among apes because they evolved into us. We still see great apes. There's a reason for that. When a species evolves, it's relative to what it needs to survive better.

Apes are not humans. Birds are not dinosaurs. They are completely different species with entirely different genetic code and genetic compatibilities.while we came from apes, they aren't the same thing. Likewise for birds and dinosaurs. Try raping a gorrilla or mating a bird with pleasiosaur. It won't happen. It doesn't mean all apes are going to become like us. Apes of today may take a completely different route due to their circumstance. They might even die off.

I don't know why all these people can justify ignoring we made a minor mistake in our our observations. We lived with dinosaurs.  It isn't a creationist's scam and that article I linked was written by an evolutionist. He even mentions other evolutionists (who still are evolutionists to date) who used to be skeptical about dinosaurs living among us, but they changed their minds and accepted it as reality. And (gasp) they stayed evolutionists! Didn't stop them from being rational one bit! :P
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 11, 2014, 04:05:50 PM

PS I used to be a christian and therefore I have a lot of close Christian friends in my personal life.It's so fucking annoying but I have to act like I believe around them. I have to force myself to not curse and not be anything like who I really am just so they'll stay my friends. It's annoying as fuck. Everyone who I know who aren't Christians from public school hate me because I've in times past told them they were going to hell as of before my braincells budded. So it's like I admit to being an atheist now and lose all my friends or suck it up indefinitely.

Yea, I know what you are going thru, all of my family (or almost) are devout christians, even my wife, and I'm still in the closet for fear of loosing them, but this is not a way to live, I'm planing in coming out to them some time before Christmas; if they truly love me then it will not matter, and if they can't accept me as I am...

fuck them!
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: Goombert on July 11, 2014, 04:11:00 PM
Well, many of you probably already realized I'm not really a man of faith. But you don't understand that when I was little, I believed in god very much through my grandparents and family. Yes it is extremely annoying when you start to realize the flaws that nobody will dare attempt to reconcile.

I can be a bit atheistic and devilish at times, but I'm really agnostic, and by that I don't mean that I believe there is a God. For instance, there are simulation hypotheses about the universe, we could be a really advanced version of The Sims and have a creator. Sure, these ideas I am open to, I am just not open to a flying spaghetti monster, and thinking about how weak minded people have to grasp to such concepts causes me to act evil towards them at times.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 11, 2014, 04:27:09 PM
Something I know you're not understanding about my point on dinosaurs. Some evolved. While others didn't based on their ecosystems. We see birds, yes, those are dinosaurs. But it's not like we can say all dinosaurs evolved into birds. The ones who were living amoung humans must have died off or had their evolution delayed due to what was required for them to live on in their ecosystem. To say all dinosaurs became birds over the same time span and rate as time went on is like saying we aren't living among apes because they evolved into us. We still see great apes. There's a reason for that. When a species evolves, it's relative to what it needs to survive better.

Apes are not humans. Birds are not dinosaurs. They are completely different species with entirely different genetic code and genetic compatibilities.while we came from apes, they aren't the same thing. Likewise for birds and dinosaurs. Try raping a gorrilla or mating a bird with pleasiosaur. It won't happen. It doesn't mean all apes are going to become like us. Apes of today may take a completely different route due to their circumstance. They might even die off.

I don't know why all these people can justify ignoring we made a minor mistake in our our observations. We lived with dinosaurs.  It isn't a creationist's scam and it doesn't disprove our views at all.

You're right and also wrong:

Yes not all the Dinosaurs evolved into birds, some went extinct, and of the ones that did evolve not all of them did at the same pace hence the claws of the ostrich and the Kiwi, the penguins flying on water, the eagle hunting from above while the vulture eats carrion, hence all the different genus among birds.

No never did humans live among the huge beast that are the birds ancestors, many millions of years separate their extinction and the evolution of the comon ancestor of all great apes (Gorilla, Chimp, Bonobo, Orangutan, Human).

"Sixty-five million years ago the last of the non-avian dinosaurs went extinct. So too did the giant mosasaurs and plesiosaurs in the seas and the pterosaurs in the skies. Plankton, the base of the ocean food chain, took a hard hit. Many families of brachiopods and sea sponges disappeared. The remaining hard-shelled ammonites vanished. Shark diversity shriveled. Most vegetation withered. In all, more than half of the world's species were obliterated." http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/prehistoric-world/dinosaur-extinction/

"The most recent common ancestor of the Hominidae lived roughly 14 million years ago,[3] when the ancestors of the orangutans speciated from the ancestors of the other three genera.[4] The ancestors of the Hominidae family had already speciated from those of the Hylobatidae family, perhaps 15 million to 20 million years ago.[4]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae

So no never did humans encounter, breed pet, mount a Dinosaur (unles you count their avian descendants).

Also the genetic difference betwen a chimp and a human is much less than what you think, we share about 96% of our genetic code with them, that is our genoma and theirs is 96% identical with only a 4% defference between our species.

We do not come from apes, we are apes, the other great apes and the humans share a common ancestor, this is why you'll never see a chimp evolve into a human, they are evolving but will never be humans since it would be a really great coincidence that two different species evolved into the same thing.

Birds are dinosaurs, yet you could not interbreed them with their avian dinosaur ancestor (there were other non-avian dinosaurs and plesiosaurs were not dinosaurs [I think]) the genetic drift among them is to big for them to produce ofspring.

I think the same holds true for the other great apes and us, yet take the Dogs and the wolfs and coyotes, since their common ancestor is not too far in the past, they can still breed among them and produce fertile and viable offspring.

Apes are not humans true, Humans are Apes, since you can't outgrow from your ancestry.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: time-killer-games on July 11, 2014, 04:28:07 PM
@edsquare - So I'm not alone in this "acting christian" circus. It's good to know.

@Robert - All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Ruler of worlds! The one nicknamed Jesus Fuck!
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 11, 2014, 04:36:34 PM
@edsquare - So I'm not alone in this "acting christian" circus. It's good to know.

@Robert - All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Ruler of worlds! The one nicknamed Jesus Fuck!

No you're not alone even in your county/state/country, search the web for atheist support groups you can find like minded people to talk to befriend and build a support group before comming out (If you decide to do it) since you could really loose friends and family.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: time-killer-games on July 11, 2014, 04:47:03 PM
Thanks edsqaure. I don't want to discuss this for so long as I'm already getting a head ache, last thing I'd like to say about evolution then we can all go back to discussing holes in religion if you'd rather, as there's a lot more we'll agree on.

I won't dismiss the possibility that not all dinosaurs died off or evolved before we came along. At the time being we have no way to know that for certain. I doubt evolutionists would make a hoax of dinosaurs living with us, what would that accomplish?

So you know, our flesh and body chemistry is a lot closer to pigs and rodents than apes. We have a much more similar siloette to the apes. But that's not enough to say we're 95-ish percent close to them in the evolving cycle. We are much more different that you think. Compare the intellectual copacity of apes that can use sticks to catch bugs and then look at a human mind that can build and program an entire supercomputer from scratch. There's no comparison. We may look similar but our relation in the development in our brain is what most of all brings me to conclude we transitioned from being apes over a much longer timespan than what a good number of scientists would agree on.

Plesiosaurs aren't dinos I know, that didn't come to mind when I was posting that but I still made my suggested point.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 11, 2014, 04:58:16 PM
@TKG:

Regarding the article you cited, if it were true somebody would have earned a Nobel Prize for that, read this and do some more research abou it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ac%C3%A1mbaro_figures

As I already said in science you never throw away facts or evidence because they disprove your Hypothesis you change the hypothesis and move on.

A scientific theory is very different from a hypothesis:

In a hypothesis you are guessing and then do some more resarch/experiments tocon firm or deny your hypothesis, then you summit your findings to the community and the community reads, analizes, studies and replicates your work, trying to disprove it, if nobody can then it is accepted as a fact, until somebody can disprove it.

In a theory you are explaining several facts and laws in a cohesive, logical way so each piece of evidence has its place and helps in advancing the study of the others, for example the Theory of gravity, the Atomic theory, etc.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 11, 2014, 05:02:42 PM
Thanks edsqaure. I don't want to discuss this for so long as I'm already getting a head ache, last thing I'd like to say about evolution then we can all go back to discussing holes in religion if you'd rather, as there's a lot more we'll agree on.

I won't dismiss the possibility that not all dinosaurs died off or evolved before we came along. At the time being we have no way to know that for certain. I doubt evolutionists would make a hoax of dinosaurs living with us, what would that accomplish?

So you know, our flesh and body chemistry is a lot closer to pigs and rodents than apes. We have a much more similar siloette to the apes. But that's not enough to say we're 95-ish percent close to them in the evolving cycle. We are much more different that you think. Compare the intellectual copacity of an apes that can use sticks to catch bugs and then look at a human mind that can create a supercomputer from scratch. There's no comparison. We may look similar but our relation in the development in our brain is what most of all brings me to conclude we transitioned from being apes over a much longer timespan than what a good number of scientist would agree on.

Plesiosaurs aren't dinos I know, that didn't come to mind when I was posting that but I still made my suggested point.

Okey I'll stop pestering you about this as well, but... Do you know what the Rh factor of your blood exams means? it stands for Rhessus factor as in the rhesus monkey.

Some other time if you like we can talk a lot about evolution but first I advise you to go here: http://www.talkorigins.org/

And here: http://www.pandasthumb.org/
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: TheExDeus on July 11, 2014, 05:54:13 PM
I don't think talking about Holes in fantasy stories is even necessary. If you come to understand that every religion and every religious book is written by people, then finding plot holes is not really hard. So I won't debate about that. But the last thing you touched is actually science, so we might talk about that.
Quote
Check out this interesting article, written by an evolutionist I might add...
Sure he is actually evolutionist? Looking at some other articles by him I have my doubts. Be he could be. Doesn't matter though. His article was a good mention of many things, but sadly was very biased (even though he tried to hide it), because at least half of the things he mention there are already known to be a hoax in one way or another. He could at least mention that and let people decide. Right now it seems more like a deception. But as he is most probably not a scientist, then I didn't really expect unbiased information (aka facts) from him.

Quote
The fact is we lived among dinosaurs. Instead of acting like evolution is disproved by it and hiding it from the public or writing skeptical articles, we could just brainstorm a logical explanation behind it.
Don't get ahead of yourself. There is no "fact" of that - at least not in the theories in that article. And people have found logical explanations for all of those - it's your choice to agree with those explanations or not. Nobody tries to hide anything. As I said, at least half are already known to be hoaxes or most probably be hoaxes (The Acambaro Figurines, The Ica Stones, The Granby Idol etc.). So there actually need to be solid archeological evidence for any of that before they could even be considered as a theory. Then the fact to consider is that most of the stuff mentioned in that article that is actually old is not that old (like carving on temples made in 1100AD), and by then people would have written down information on those creatures and not just carved them. If we look on things written by ancient people (like ancient greek's and so on) all the animals mentioned are ones that are know to have existed then or exists now. There are many mythological creatures though (griffins, harpy's etc.) that nobody believes to have existed and some of them (like hydras) actually look like dinosaurs. The problem with the theory that humans lived with dinosaurs is that no archeological evidence of that has been found. Oldest human remains are nowhere close the age of the oldest dinosaur remains. It would makes sense that at least some of the dino's would be a lot younger in that case. I do think ancient people knew that something must of existed before them - they probably though hundreds of years the most. They could think that because ancient people were also very likely to find the same bones. From the bones they could of thought about the size and even look of the creature. That probably is one of many things that influenced many mythological creatures.
So the theory is not dismissed by prejudice. It's dismissed because scientists need verifiable evidence, which for now isn't there. If there was any evidence, I am sure scientists would acknowledge it in a heart beat. Like discoveries in the past few decades have pushed the oldest human remains back the oldest living humanoid many thousands of years. What science do best is adapt to new information.

edit: It also sucks that you could loose friends or family just because your views don't match theirs. Especially when I guess you don't want to change them or even care that they are Christians. You love them no matter what, yet they could stop loving you just because you are an atheist? How very Cristian of them... I guess the fact I live what is considered Northern Europe helps in this regard. From all my friends, family and coworkers, maybe 3 people are actually religious. Most are agnostics and many are atheists. So it's not really a problem here. Historically Latvia was actually the last place to be Christianized in the Crusades, as Latvian tribes fought it back. It meant that in the end we even have old religious traditions that have only fused with Christianity. Like our old gods were the Sun (most importantly), Thunder, Moon and some others. This naturalistic worship (like druids or something :D) is actually still in respect here. So either though I'm an atheist and don't believe in any god, I still worship (in a non-religions way) nature. That is why we try to be extremely green and ecological. If anyone is actually interested I suggest reading about it a little - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_mythology . Pretty original stuff (relatively speaking).

edit2:
Quote
Compare the intellectual copacity of an apes that can use sticks to catch bugs and then look at a human mind that can create a supercomputer from scratch.
So you are saying (by the whole paragraph you wrote) our intelectual capacity is closer to rodants and pigs? :D Intelligents doesn't really stem from biology that much. You can be a 99.99% match, but one can be a genius and the other can be no smarter than an ape.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: Darkstar2 on July 11, 2014, 06:17:39 PM
You'll like this one then Darkstar2 ;)

There is a difference between having faith and being fanatic.  Fanatic is something I am not, I agree that religion has flaws. This is a dangerous topic to be discussing on a forum as some people might be touchy, mind you I have an open mind and like to debate, I don't let religion dictate my life, but I do believe in God, there are so many things science cannot explain, and looking around how the world has become I do believe evil exists, therefore I do believe in God/Supreme being.

UNFORTUNATELY God and religion have been made into industries to prey on the gullible - they have become an industry where some TV ministries and other organisations earn millions of $ those bloody motherfuckers whilst people are starving to death, selling their snake oil, fraud and stealing money.  But genuinely I do believe in God and the history, only that some of it was mangled and made commercial for profit and that is what makes me livid ! BECAUSE that gives the wrong impression and this is what has turned some believers away.

Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: Darkstar2 on July 11, 2014, 06:29:19 PM
I respect other religion and people's belief and one thing I won't do is bash or low blow, like some do....... Rather have faith in it (lose nothing, as I am not running my life on fanaticism) than believing in nothing and losing out.  Seeing how evil the world has become and what is going on only reinforces my faith.  I know few atheists / skeptics who have turned !  yes evil does exist, look around you, kids are killing much younger, violence is on the motherfucking rise, insane weather, etc.......

@edsquare : So you are an ordained minister ?  You probably did not pay attention in class :P  Yes there are many flaws with human, our machine is very flawed and defective - but keep in mind, we as humans are responsible for all the shite that is happening on this motherfucking planet !  It's easy to blame God for everything and for not "intervening" - but God gave us FREE WILL.... and by free will we have choices and we make them and live through their consequences.  There are many times where I have been bloody angry and cussed out ..... but I quickly redeem myself and know that everything happens for a reason and that it's all about free will.... If I were to walk on the bloody roof top and go to the edge and bloody jump, is God going to stop me ???? is he going to place a bloody force field that will prevent this white motherfucker to jump ? NO....... Why ? because I have FREE WILL !!!

EVERYONE has free will.

Those who don't believe in God or have no faith I respect that and those who believe in a spaghetti and meatballs God I respect that too I won't go bashing your God......

I believe in God.  What I don't believe in is the bloody RUBBISH, commercialised highly biased money ridden corrupted shite that has been made ! also I am not into praying statues, objects, etc.

Without this fucking shite SCAM that religion and world ministries have become and earning billions on the backs of the poverty, I guess there would be more believers.....

But that again is a delicate topic.  There is another religion that also has flaws, and I won't go into that and really don't think it's a good idea to be talking about religion on a public forum as we are bound to get our arsed torn :P

If "JC" (That infamous character who calls on many talk shows including Art Bell) were to read these posts here he'd tear us all a new arsehole.......... LOL.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 11, 2014, 07:13:14 PM
@Darkstar2

Yes I am and I did pay attention, but I think I will refrain from commenting on this subject anymore, since it's likely to lead nowhere and to build anymosity between us.

Edit: This Freewill of the child molesters is so precious that He/She/It can't prevent the systematic rape of children?

Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: Darkstar2 on July 11, 2014, 07:46:52 PM
@Darkstar2

Yes I am and I did pay attention, but I think I will refrain from commenting on this subject anymore, since it's likely to lead nowhere and to build anymosity between us.

Edit: This Freewill of the child molesters is so precious that He/She/It can't prevent the systematic rape of children?

Yes this is a touchy topic, there are pedophiles in every religion, and yes it's pathetic to see these kind of crimes committed sometimes by the people you least expect and who are ministers, priests, etc.  But again, if you understand the concept, and read the bible and history, sin existed since the beginning of man kind, God does *NOT* prevent sin whatever the implication, and again it comes to free will.  I do believe in Karma and I do believe those won't go unpunished........We both can agree that those pedophiles, rapists, etc, have only one destination....... :P  But there again maybe life is just an experiment, we are meant to live in a fucked up world, maybe there is a purpose, and the whole pedophile, rapists, etc is all about EVIL, all this is covered as well, if the world was perfect and every bad thing was PREVENTED by a supreme force then you might as well call it heaven, not earth.......So yeah life is just an experiment created by a supreme being.
But I think I see and understand now what turned you atheist, in a way I share your frustrations which are the same, I have on may occasions cussed out and asked how the bloody FUCK can God allow what's going on in this shite world we live in ? But there again I think life has a purpose, and it was not meant to be pleasant and perfect - so I try as much as possible to channel out this rubbish though it's difficult because you hear about it everyday in the news.  But evil, false prophets, corruption, etc all that is covered and things are happening now before our eyes, can't be denied.  IS it GOD to blame for not stopping it or preventing it ? NO.....it's us bloody CUNTS of human beings to blame as we choose our own faiths, God gave us freedom to decide...... But as an ordained minister if you became an atheist because of that reason alone, and because of all the HORROR stories you hear from your colleagues or the church, vatican, ministries and other highly corrupt organisations crafted by man kind ? then it's sad because this is the power of evil getting the best of you.  Mind you as a kid remember we used to say our prayers before meals, and before bed time, go to church etc, I used to - but as you grow up you kinda lose that and your faith takes a hit, for much the same reasons covered above, and I'm probably not the best person to talk about this as I am not exactly a practicing catholic, have not seen a church in ages, and don't make it a habit of praying, though I do believe and I have faith, which I almost lost for the same reasons as most, though I watch the news and watch what's going on around me daily and that is the only thing keeping my faith lit........
But I guess to each their own.

I do think DIRE things are to come......BUT out o this will come good.

If you get out your house tomorrow and fall off stairs and break your nose will you blame GOD for not preventing your fall ?  I'm guilty of that I must admit, used to cuss out why ? Because I have free will, but also I know better.....and I think with everything going on in the world, full of SHITE, corruption and evil, I now understand that all this was foreseen and has a meaning / purpose.  Hopefully something good will come of it, if not, then I did not lose anything as again, I know I lived my life without letting religion and man crated corruption dictate my actions.

Nice topic though I think most of us here are open minded enough you can elaborate no animosity as I said I have an open mind and I'm not exactly an example anyway :P 

We were created with flaws and the things around us, but we have been given free will.
Yes that includes free will to destroy our planet.

Cheers.

Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: time-killer-games on July 11, 2014, 08:38:06 PM
@ExDeus you seem to know what your talking about I'll take your word for it. On a different topic you're right that very much does make them major hypocrites.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 11, 2014, 11:38:54 PM
@Darkstar2

Yes I am and I did pay attention, but I think I will refrain from commenting on this subject anymore, since it's likely to lead nowhere and to build anymosity between us.

Edit: This Freewill of the child molesters is so precious that He/She/It can't prevent the systematic rape of children?

Yes this is a touchy topic, there are pedophiles in every religion, and yes it's pathetic to see these kind of crimes committed sometimes by the people you least expect and who are ministers, priests, etc.  But again, if you understand the concept, and read the bible and history, sin existed since the beginning of man kind, God does *NOT* prevent sin whatever the implication, and again it comes to free will.  I do believe in Karma and I do believe those won't go unpunished........We both can agree that those pedophiles, rapists, etc, have only one destination....... :P  But there again maybe life is just an experiment, we are meant to live in a fucked up world, maybe there is a purpose, and the whole pedophile, rapists, etc is all about EVIL, all this is covered as well, if the world was perfect and every bad thing was PREVENTED by a supreme force then you might as well call it heaven, not earth.......So yeah life is just an experiment created by a supreme being.

So basically we are an ant farm and god is a child with a magnifiying glass?

But I think I see and understand now what turned you atheist, in a way I share your frustrations which are the same, I have on may occasions cussed out and asked how the bloody FUCK can God allow what's going on in this shite world we live in ? But there again I think life has a purpose, and it was not meant to be pleasant and perfect - so I try as much as possible to channel out this rubbish though it's difficult because you hear about it everyday in the news.  But evil, false prophets, corruption, etc all that is covered and things are happening now before our eyes, can't be denied.  IS it GOD to blame for not stopping it or preventing it ? NO.....it's us bloody CUNTS of human beings to blame as we choose our own faiths, God gave us freedom to decide...... But as an ordained minister if you became an atheist because of that reason alone, and because of all the HORROR stories you hear from your colleagues or the church, vatican, ministries and other highly corrupt organisations crafted by man kind ? then it's sad because this is the power of evil getting the best of you.  Mind you as a kid remember we used to say our prayers before meals, and before bed time, go to church etc, I used to - but as you grow up you kinda lose that and your faith takes a hit, for much the same reasons covered above, and I'm probably not the best person to talk about this as I am not exactly a practicing catholic, have not seen a church in ages, and don't make it a habit of praying, though I do believe and I have faith, which I almost lost for the same reasons as most, though I watch the news and watch what's going on around me daily and that is the only thing keeping my faith lit........
But I guess to each their own.

Not only the pedophiles, natural disasters, desease, greed, corruption, the total failure of prayer, among other things took a hit to my faith, but what ended killing it was the bible itself, since I didn't had the faith blindfold covering my eyes and mudding my reason, readding the bible opened my eyes to the atrocities promulgated by my christianity, not to mention the horrors done in it's name.

Jesus said he didn't came to change the law but to fullfill it, and that not a single iota or dot of the law would change until the endtimes. Therefore all the 613 commandments are still in place and not only the ten the christians follow, and among all the commandments there's not a single mention about not raping people, let alone children, yet there's one about mixed fabrics, and several about what to eat, when and how.

I do think DIRE things are to come......BUT out o this will come good.

If you get out your house tomorrow and fall off stairs and break your nose will you blame GOD for not preventing your fall ?  I'm guilty of that I must admit, used to cuss out why ? Because I have free will, but also I know better.....and I think with everything going on in the world, full of SHITE, corruption and evil, I now understand that all this was foreseen and has a meaning / purpose.  Hopefully something good will come of it, if not, then I did not lose anything as again, I know I lived my life without letting religion and man crated corruption dictate my actions.

Nice topic though I think most of us here are open minded enough you can elaborate no animosity as I said I have an open mind and I'm not exactly an example anyway :P 

We were created with flaws and the things around us, but we have been given free will.
Yes that includes free will to destroy our planet.

Cheers.

So we are created sick and commanded to get well, how fucked up is that? This homicidal, egomaniac, unsure, homophobe, misoginistic god ceated us as we are, and then has the gall to command us to be different? The sins of the father pass to the sons? fuck him! My son wasn't born evil or with any imperfection (and I would say the same thing even if he had any dissability), he was a perfect and beautiful baby, and now is a perfect and loving teenager.

About the origin of evil nobody can say it better than Epicurus so I will just quote him:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”


Unless He proves beyond any doubt and in a falsiable way to exist I don/t believe in his existence, almost every religious person is an atheist in regards to the god/gods of all the other religions, I just went one god further.

There are around 40 thousand christian denominations, with the same number of interpretations of the bible, which one is right and why?

How can anyone know for sure that it's not Mahoma, Buda, Hanuman, Zeus, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, the one true god?

And about hedging my bets... believing in order to avoid the posibility of hell is not believing is just hipocrisy.

Life has meaning and purpose? of course it has! Well at least mine does, to do good by my fellow humans, to be the best example for my son, to guide him when he needs it, to hold him and to know when to let him go.

Morality? The bible has no high ground and neither does any other religious book I have read ( so far only the bible, the coran and the tora), what is so moral about hating homosexuals? where is the morality in treating women as second class humans? Where is the morality in picketting dead soldiers funerals and enhancing the suffering of the family? For every good thing a religion does it does a hundred bad things.

Check out the worst countries for women and you'll find they are among or the most religious countries, the worst AIDS epidemic is in a country in Africa (I don't remember the name) and the Catholic and other christian misionaries there constantly tell the people the the use of the condom not only doesn't help in preventing the contagion but helps spreading it.  :-\

The poorest and most ignorant people are the ones that have more children, why? because their religions tell them that any form of anticonception is a sin.  :-\

This I heard in a song in youtube:

I have no problem with the religious believes of other fuckers
as long as those believes don't impact in the happines of others
but if you build a church in claims of moral authority
and with threats of hell impose it on others in society
then you you m.....rf...er can expect some fking raft
when it turns out you benn fking us in the mrfking asses

if he protects a single fker whose a kiddie fker the he's not better than the mrfking rappist.

Peace out bro.  :D

Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: Darkstar2 on July 12, 2014, 01:21:23 AM
So basically we are an ant farm and god is a child with a magnifiying glass?

Science cannot answer everything, can you ?  What created this universe, how can something be created from eternal blackness / void ? if there were no supreme being wouldn't we already have a logical explanation to this ?  Some claim we are a product of advanced life forces on other universes, ant farms ? lol yeah maybe...... Or perhaps God created it all and left everything up to free will.  My point is, life is not just a random event, there is a purpose to it, I DO strongly believe we each have a purpose and everything that happens has a reason, I'm not going to go too much into detail why I think this way, but let me just tell you some FACTS......  Haven't you noticed some people are so lucky, seem not to work or do any work and succeed whilst some other people are nice, peaceful and go nowhere in life and fail ?  I think we are predestined to certain things, already science is studying the so-called luck gene, and other type of info locked in our genes, which can determine our traits, health, etc.  We have free will for our decisions and actions, but certain things are hard coded.  Why the FUCK do some people eat tons of sugar and are morbidly obese yet have normal health and no diabetes ? Whilst some people are skinny, eat healthy, work out and have diabetes, and other diseases ?

Our we subject to an experiment, or are all of the above explained by man made influences (pollution, lifestyle, free will) which shapes future generation of human defects ?  One thing for sure, science is studying more about this and it seems more plausible that we don't have control over everything.....LIFE itself was created and everything surrounding it, so who created religion, languages, pollution, wars, money, corruption, etc......Man or God ? This one is easy.  The world could have been an ideal one, but who turned it around ? Corruption & evil and control.    Weren't older generations living happier with much less and yet people have so much more and are still not happy now.......So it's God's fault ??? Or man kind ?
Did you know that in evolution at some point our bodies had the ability to grow new organs ? heal itself, etc........? So perhaps we took a pristine creation and fucked it up.
Now some might say "Well God must have known about this, referring to revelations and stuff" well, I have not read the whole bible but familiar with this section, and it is SCARY that some of the stuff in the bible is written with frightening accuracy and manifesting today as we speak.......SO, this makes the argument more plausible that there is a reason for everything and that which is happening is meant to be.

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Not only the pedophiles, natural disasters, desease, greed, corruption, the total failure of prayer,

You are right, except that's it man kind who made a choice to steer away from God......Remember God is not a controlling dictatorship.   :P Failure of prayer, yeah that's another topic I can write 300 pages about.......How do people pray is PATHETIC.
Praying status, stone, wooden crosses, etc, people don't worship God but statues and objects, so yeah if you are praying to inanimate objects which 99.9% is the case, then it's no wonder.  Personally I have witnessed people who benefited from prayer, but again this is highly open to debate......Some scientists claim we have a "God" area in our brain, and we have the power to attract or repel everything that happens in our lives.  Honestly I don't fucking believe in the power of attraction rubbish, yet science is more inclined toward this theory than a God.......and oddly I know people who benefited quite a lot more from this theory than God and prayer though if I'm being honest......However,  I am not ready to dismiss the existence of a supreme being. 

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among other things took a hit to my faith, but what ended killing it was the bible itself, since I didn't had the faith blindfold covering my eyes and mudding my reason, readding the bible opened my eyes to the atrocities promulgated by my christianity, not to mention the horrors done in it's name.

True, so true, but you don't have to read the bible to know this.....I get so angry when I read and see on the news on a regular basis all the corruption and CRIMES of enormous atrocities committed using the religion but remember, again, man made.  If people are using God's name in vein and doing atrocities is it God's fault ?  If we did not have free will we would be a bunch of Robots, no soul, no mind, no nothing, just a bunch of puppets in flesh :D

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Jesus said he didn't came to change the law but to fullfill it, and that not a single iota or dot of the law would change until the endtimes. Therefore all the 613 commandments are still in place and not only the ten the christians follow, and among all the commandments there's not a single mention about not raping people, let alone children, yet there's one about mixed fabrics, and several about what to eat, when and how.

You can have 5000 commandments, man kind has been given the free will to follow it.

Everything you speak of above comes from EVIL influence......and according to scripture that will be dealt with, and those who suffered as a result who stayed faithful and repent for their sins, would also get dealt with (in a good way).  No crime goes unpunished.  There is one passage in the Bible that talks about the rise of evil, brother against brother, torn families, hate, violence, etc........Look at the news...look around, things are manifesting with 100% accuracy, you see more crimes against children, evil violent children, kid killing parents, parents killing kids, etc........these things are all the rise of EVIL ........ IT IS EXACTLY THIS that raised my faith a notch, because I understood the meaning of it all.   Is it normal to see more and more kids so violent SO YOUNG !?!?!?  World is full of HATE and crime, that is the rise of EVIL, now one could say "so why doesn't God intervene and end this......" He never said he'd prevent this, the scriptures even foresaw all of this in great detail and it was written that this WOULD be dealt with, and nobody would know when or see it coming.

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So we are created sick and commanded to get well,

No, we are sick because of corruption, because of man made pollution, because of the multi trillion medical industry which is a big  crooked scam making medicine that makes you more ill.......processed foods, chemicals, all of that ........As much as medical science has made advancement and we are able to cure stuff, on the down side a lot of cures are being withheld due to this trillion $ industry.....I do strongly believe we have the ability and knowledge to cure most diseases but in the name of evil, money and corruption it is withheld, and of course population control........:D  Not everyone is born sick :D  There are many things still not understood fully be science though, but a lot of our life story and health can be decoded from our genes, science only solved part of the puzzle on that.  Could what we are going through in life be influenced by how we lived any past lives ? I think life as we know it has a purpose.....what ?  Maybe we find out one day.......

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how fucked up is that? This homicidal, egomaniac, unsure, homophobe, misoginistic god ceated us as we are, and then has the gall to command us to be different? The sins of the father pass to the sons? fuck him! My son wasn't born evil or with any imperfection (and I would say the same thing even if he had any dissability), he was a perfect and beautiful baby, and now is a perfect and loving teenager.

Well mate, what can I say :D As much as the world is full of evil, not everyone is a pedophile, rapist, criminal, homophobe, etc..... hopefully if scripture proves true, and I believe it will, this evil will be cleansed and thrown where it belongs.......   Mark of beast, I was so skeptic about this before but now with all the advances in technology, moving towards chip implants and chipped CC  big brother watching you everywhere, it's pretty obvious this passage in the Bible was accurate.  So I have 2 choices, blame God for this bloody fucking rubbish, or channel out the evil around me which I try hard to do, and not associate with any of that ....  I have a motherfucking disability, and I won't go into details, yet I have my mental capacities, 2 arms, 2 legs and I can walk, talk, eat, drink etc (I have myopia) and another condition which I won't get into.....makes life a fuck, however, on the flip side, I try to channel it out and enjoy WHAT I have and know there is a purpose to this....... Perhaps had I not read so much into this I might have felt differently.

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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”


Yeah I see where you are going and that is a mystery, but the scriptures were clear on that, that God's intervention would come, as he did leave free will, but to what extent, now that evil is taking over pretty much the entire planet, it is said that there will be intervention, and it IS mentioned that in the end times people would turn against God, burn Churches, etc.......and here is the perfect example of what is going on in the news......

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Unless He proves beyond any doubt and in a falsiable way to exist I don/t believe in his existence, almost every religious person is an atheist in regards to the god/gods of all the other religions, I just went one god further.

So if that is the case, then man kind should have the answers to ALL........How our full body works including brain, how to explain the many things that cannot yet be explained.......what created the universe, etc.etc.etc........how to explain some people have amazing abilities beyond logic .....
So we don't have answers to a lot of shite, wouldn't you say that makes the idea of a supreme creator more plausible, ok forget the notion of God and religion, but if you dismiss that God exists then can you explain what created all of this ? from void ?  Whoever created this from void, who created the creator.........Can you answer that ?
No.  Perhaps as physical bodies we don't have the answer to this, but we might get this answer eventually as perhaps EVERYTHING already existed for eternity ?
but how ?

HOW to explain some people miraculously heal of the worst diseases ...... this is well documented in the medical field.....science still cannot explain our full brain function
and outside forces / influences.....

Science tries to discredit out of body experiences and near death by claiming it is the result of chemicals in the brain during death......but how the fuck do you explain documented cases of people being clinically and BRAIN dead for minutes and recalling and seeing the doctors, conversations across rooms, etc........ How do you explain that some people through regression hypnosis recalled some stuff with amazing detail and accuracy they would never have known......
How do you explain some people dream of traveling to places they NEVER have seen or been to before..... I know someone in my family that had this happen to them, dreaming of traveling to a place they never been to, seen or heard of, and yet one day when they did travel to that destination they knew where to go and identified with the exact place they saw in their dreams.

How to explain EVP and other paranormal phenomenon ? Science is not able to explain this till this day, so unless someone can give me answers to life's mysteries I will keep having faith that there is a supreme creator.......and one and only  creator for all man kind !  Perhaps man made RELIGION and GOD as an easy way to interface with said supreme being........ I think in the end, we have one creator for all...... WHY isn't our planet ideal, peaceful all get along, no criminals, no hate, no evil ? Ask the supreme creator or God.......:P But unless I get answers to these mysteries I would find it hard to not believe. :D

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There are around 40 thousand christian denominations, with the same number of interpretations of the bible, which one is right and why?

That was all man made as a coping mechanism, I do think to some extent our faith in a God is linked to some area in our brain, science is figuring this out, as a way to help us cope. HOWEVER, 90% of the puzzle unsolved.......That is suffice for me to believe there is something bigger than we can explain.

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How can anyone know for sure that it's not Mahoma, Buda, Hanuman, Zeus, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, the one true god?

Again man made territory - that's how we were hardwired.   I honestly do not believe in multiple Gods, but one God I don't believe in is a God that promises people paradise if they kill and murder others, and this is where a certain religion was mangled and biased by man kind......you know which I am talking about.......Yes Christianity has its flaws but many other religions also have flaws, all product of human intervention.

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And about hedging my bets... believing in order to avoid the posibility of hell is not believing is just hipocrisy.

Another debate, is hell is a physical place or a state of mind (void, being away from everything and from God).  Sorry mate but I never said I had faith to avoid hell, I have faith because I realised the things happening around me along with other stuff I witnessed and along with the scriptures and what is happening all around.......Do I believe in evil ? YES.....do I believe in a hell ? YES.....do I believe in hell as a physical place with fire, etc....I'm on the fence on that one...... If there is a purgatory we are living on it, it's called EARTH......."HEAVEN" as a sky with puffy clouds, maybe that is harder to believe, I think "HEAVEN" is the ultimate state of energy where you are AWAY from the limits of physical life, evil, etc and at complete peace. Hell is the exact opposite, void, absence of everything, nothing, eternal torment.   Hypocrisy is not covered in the Bible in that regards, you either believe and have faith or you don't ,regardless of the reason......you do good, you repent of your sins and ask for forgiveness, whether you do this to avoid hell or because of genuine faith, is irrelevant.  You either believe or you don't....... My faith is genuine and has nothing to do with hell !

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Morality? The bible has no high ground and neither does any other religious book I have read ( so far only the bible, the coran and the tora), what is so moral about hating homosexuals? where is the morality in treating women as second class humans? Where is the morality in picketting dead soldiers funerals and enhancing the suffering of the family? For every good thing a religion does it does a hundred bad things.

I don't care for any of that stuff, and once again, RELIGION is man's creation along with all the crap that comes with it. God did not event religion.  Humans were hard wired to interface and cope with life by creating language, God, Religion, the fact that man has created all this mess does not rule out an actual supreme being does not exist though, for reasons stated above, until the day where science will answer ALL the bloody questions.

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Check out the worst countries for women and you'll find they are among or the most religious countries, the worst AIDS epidemic is in a country in Africa (I don't remember the name) and the Catholic and other christian misionaries there constantly tell the people the the use of the condom not only doesn't help in preventing the contagion but helps spreading it.  :-\

Religoin != God.  Moot point.  Otherwise you are right from the above I won't argue there......But who dictates this rubbish ? Our supreme being, God or man made religions ?   It is also man made religion that says pleasure is a sin, (sex).  and that sex was meant as procreation...... So what is a sin, using a condom to avoid putting a child you can't care of and will probably throw in the garbage or flush down the toilet OR fucking without the rubber and putting the  child you knew you couldn't raise and care for ? Answer is simple...... The equation is simple God != religion. 

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The poorest and most ignorant people are the ones that have more children, why? because their religions tell them that any form of anticonception is a sin.  :-\

I don't subscribe to such rubbish.  What is a sin is to not use protection and put babies in the world you can't care for, and we see the results of what that gives by watching the world and the news......Again religion, man made.  Some religions consider it a sin eating carrots ......or having meatballs on a tuesday......... :D  In my books, our creator made sex pleasurable, and this thing called RELIGION is what sets those said "LIMITS" and those atrocities.

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I have no problem with the religious believes of other fuckers
as long as those believes don't impact in the happines of others
but if you build a church in claims of moral authority
and with threats of hell impose it on others in society
then you you m.....rf...er can expect some fking raft
when it turns out you benn fking us in the mrfking asses

:P

Man kind made an industry of God and mangled it, made fear out of it and stuff.  There is passage that says people will steer away from God, stop believing ,Churches burned, vacant, etc........it's all happening, fewer people go to Church now.....too much fear mongering and brainwash, they make an industry out of that and people getting RICH from that industry, I have a BIG problem with that, and which is why I don't subscribe to any of it.......I believe because I believe, not because I am supposed to or told to or any of the fear mongering.

What makes me SICK is those TV ministries, that prey (note the correct spelling :D) on people, through programmes on fucking TV ask for money and brainwash people with BS......THAT is the product of evil and people are fooled and associate it with God......but when I see the fat CUNT on the tely spout his rubbish, I know he is not a man of God but evil and corruption......and most of these SO CALLED ministers are atheist and don't believe in shite.   I try not to let this ruin my faith because I know they have NOTHING to do with God.  Do good onto others should not come with a cost and should not be made into an industry to prey on vulnerable people.

BUY NOW OUR MIRACLE crystal cross for 3 easy installments of $49.99 if you order now we will include FREE of charge our amazing miracle healing bracelet........ BUT WAIT ,if you call within 10 minutes we will cut down one installment so you won't pay 3 but only TWO ***EASY*** installments of $49.99 each !!!!

What utter bloody nonsense. :P

and Sammy Thou Shall Not Pick your nose (or nose of other people ) LOL.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 12, 2014, 02:21:33 AM
@ Darkstar2:

I wont quote your whole huge post mate ;D

Just a couple of points.-

Something from nothing: Science does not subscribe that in any way or form, yet every creation myth does, first a being/beings that exist beyond time and space, then the whole universe magically apears, and then humankind is made out of corn, mud, blood cloths etc.

By a loving god that would send us to burn forever if we do not sing his praise. And if we do then will reward us by sending us to heaven to keep on singing his glory for ever! and to live under his tiranic thought police for ethernity? No thanks :)

The evil/freewill thing: Even conceding that it must be untouched not matter if you're a mass murderer or a child molester, ok I'll give you that but... What about the inocent? why must they suffer in order for the degenerates to have their all-important freewill? Why not read their minds/hearts and if they are about to grab a children from the street kill them? if thinking is a sin then intent most surely is, the freewill is untouched and the inocent protected; I wont buy the divine plan and my inability to understand god's misterious ways, if he exists and he is all knowing, all powerful, then he most certainly can stop the child molesters before they do actual harm.

If he does exist and is such a dick as to let all those horrors to take place in order to prove to the devil who has the biggest cock... he is a prick and does not deserve as much as a how are you? let alone to be worshiped by me.

It really should not surprise me that the god of the bible is such a prick since it was the war god of the judeans before they became monotheists.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: egofree on July 12, 2014, 02:34:44 AM
For newbies on this forum, perhaps they would be interested to know that we had already a long discussion about this subject (more or less) : http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=1677.0
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: Goombert on July 12, 2014, 03:56:04 AM
Wow, thank you so much ego, I completely forgot about this image!!!!

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5xnrlYs0b1rsuvvmo1_500.png)

roflmao

Edit: Wow I made some great posts in that topic.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GlN5u2tQwLU/To57CTSsmNI/AAAAAAAAE54/zv37JRzVHGs/s1600/gay-dog.jpg)

@Harri, btw when you disagreed with my list of atheist/religious people, it actually had good and bad atheists and theists alike, so you definitely misinterpreted me.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: The 11th plague of Egypt on July 12, 2014, 07:41:09 AM
II) Catholic Christianity
Catholics have (in theory) even more holes in their faith than Protestants, even with the fact Catholics have been around MUCH longer!

A) What kind of "just" or "perfect" God would give his holy priests the reputation of general rapists and child molesters? 'Nuff said.

B) Pray to Mary? Pray to Holy Saints in Heaven? If a saint in heaven doesn't forgive me neither will Jesus? That's right, they have all the books the Protestants do but with "additional" books the Protestants don't. In the Protestant Bible, it's very clear and blatant (especially in Acts and Paul's letters) you don't pray to anyone but Jesus Himself (or the Trinity). But the "other" books the Protestants dropped and the Catholics kept don't say that at all. Your etenerinty doesn't have to be completely due to the Trinity's final decision, heck, what if someone who's in heaven doesn't like you? You're going to hell babe.

C) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.

a) Getting thrown out of the Eden garden was a metaphor* of mankind wanting to know more. Do more. Even evil, if so we pleased.
See the "De libero arbitrio" (by Erasmus) vs "De servo arbitrio" (by Luther), which was indicative of one of the theoretical fractures between Catholics and Protestants.
Short summary of "De libero arbitrio", God simply leaves the world in its shit because mankind wanted to be free.
So, if mankind wants to roll itself in shit, God lets it do so, because otherwise it would be taking its freedom away.
Some priests being dickheads and not being wiped out of existence is a consequence of that "free will for all" thing.
Freedom comes with responsibility, you know. Sin like an idiot and get what you deserve in the end.

b) man can save itself if it really repents its sins. This is one big thing on which Catholics and Protestants have a diametrically opposite view.
For a Catholic, "repent and be saved" is true.
Confession is a sacrament practiced only by Catholics after all, but, if somebody believes it's something that grants automatic salvation, then he's fooling himself. If you don't truly repent your sins, then confession will not save you, even worse, you are hijacking a sacred ritual and committing an additional sin. Some people joke about death bed confessions, but that's because they really don't know what repenting means. It's not just regretting the consequences of your actions. It means that if the same situation would happen again, you would act differently. That's something easier said than done. How many times did we do something we knew we would regret, again?
The Catholic view on the subject of salvation is different from the Protestants'. Jesus remembered us what is written in the Proverbs, the righteous man sins seven times a day. That is, we are weak and can fall to temptation. But, because of the free will you were given, you can decide whether you want to be saved or if you don't care and just want enjoy yourself while here on Earth. To be saved you should put some of your own effort to make good actions and pray for help not to sin.

*The mainstream interpretation of this tale in the Roman Catholic Church is that it was a parable, not something really happened.
Oh, and by the way, the Catholic Church accepts evolution as a possibility and stopped trying to discredit it a long time ago.

EDIT: sorry for the late edit, please reference this version
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: TheExDeus on July 12, 2014, 07:53:14 AM
Quote
And about hedging my bets... believing in order to avoid the posibility of hell is not believing is just hipocrisy.
Exactly. Whenever someone tells me about Pascal's Wager I am just saddened by the ignorance. Some of the reasons why it's stupid can be read here (http://www.alternet.org/story/149920/why_it%27s_not_a_%27safe_bet%27_to_believe_in_god?page=0%2C5), but I don't really care about all that. As an Atheist I respect life, I try to do as much as possible to help others in theirs. Because if this is the only life we have, then there is nothing more important to make it as good as possible for everyone. If god sends me to hell, because I didn't believe him, yet even if I was very good, then I don't even want to go to heaven. One of the commandments in most of religions are actually "God is a jealous god" - that always puzzled me. Why would I want to believe in him if he is an asshole? I better live in hell with people like Carl Sagan, than in heaven with O'Railly and an asshole god. If he cannot respect my actions, then it's his own problem. Especially when he is the reason why so many doesn't believe in him. Like so little would be required for him to show himself to others, yet he couldn't give two shits. He just wants to play with people and send ones with the brain to hell. It's like Mark Twain said - "Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.".

Quote
Life has meaning and purpose? of course it has! Well at least mine does, to do good by my fellow humans, to be the best example for my son, to guide him when he needs it, to hold him and to know when to let him go.
Again, exactly. Religious people often talk about life's meaning and purpose as if only god can it to them. Your life's meaning can be anything, and it's totally a personal thing. My life's purpose is to learn as much as things as possible, because I respect intellect, knowledge, curiosity. And trough this knowledge I try to help as much people as possible. To improve the world trough scientific advancements and help everyone in need.

Quote
Morality? The bible has no high ground and neither does any other religious book I have read ( so far only the bible, the coran and the tora), what is so moral about hating homosexuals? where is the morality in treating women as second class humans? Where is the morality in picketting dead soldiers funerals and enhancing the suffering of the family? For every good thing a religion does it does a hundred bad things.
I believe religious people are in fact sociopaths. One kind of sociopath is a person, who can't actually feel emotions, because of some chemical changes in his head. But if the person is like that from the minute he is born, then he of course will not know that. That means when he grows up he does what society and family asks of him and he behaves as required. This means he in fact "emulates emotions". He doesn't have an emotional problem with killing a person, but he doesn't do it because society told him not too. And he knows he will be punished (thrown in jail) if he does. And religious people are often the same - they need a book which actually tells them not to do, like "thou shall not kill" - that is a line only required for a sociopath. As Atheist I have more reasons not to kill, than a religious person. If they can even rationalize killing by "well he went to heaven", then as an atheist I cannot. This is the only existence we have, thus nothing is more important than it. So I wouldn't ever be able to kill a person (unless in defense of other peoples lives including my own), because that would mean I have take away what is the most important in this existence.

Quote
In a perfect world, with perfect scientists.  :) In reality scientists are human beings like others, not worse, but not better, and often they follow political goals. You just have to see for example the topic of environment nowadays : you see 'scientists' who predict the end of the world if you don't follow their advise. Manipulating people with fear is not the monopoly of religions.
Your points are only valid if you believe a certain topic is only researched by one scientist. The reason science is so unbiased is because there are millions upon millions of scientists in the world - in every single country in the world. That means when one proposes something, then there is an army of people who criticizes it. When it holds up to criticism then it can be found as valid. But if science actually comes to a conclusion that we will have serious environment chances in the future can in fact will kill millions, then why wouldn't you listen? Religion is when people just yell that end of the world is coming. Science is when you make take everything you know, make a simulation and find that it really is.

Quote
Just to give a recent example. I live in Geneva, and soon there will be a huge project to understand and simulate the human brain : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Brain_Project. It is mainly funded by the European Union. Yesterday we have seen in the media that a group of 400 scientists signed a petition against this project. In newspapers, i've read interviews of scientists who said that this project in non-sense. I don't know if it's true or not, but i am rather confident that it is also a question of money. The problem is that a lot money will go only for one project, and the others projects will receive less money. So when a scientist says that a scientific project or theory is bullshit, you have to take into his background.
They didn't call it "non-sense" and they didn't call it because science is bad. They have problems with the goals of the project and of course the money involved. That doesn't make it politics. They are just feeling that one project which don't have the proper goals is worse than many smaller ones. Like if we have to send a hundred million rover to mars, we try to send one which will do the most good to science. And there is always a difference of opinion what is the most good. That doesn't discredit science one bit. It does the opposite - it shows that it's not about everyone staying in one mindset and disregarding everything else. It shows that there is a discussion, change and consensus. So this event shows how versatile science actually is. The project will most probably be changed to accommodate these scientist opinions, if possible.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: The 11th plague of Egypt on July 12, 2014, 08:26:10 AM
III) Mormon Christianity
This is the most recently founded flavor of the Christian faith.

A) The founder of this religion had a "vision" from an *angel* named Moroni. The angel told him that Modern Christianity has been corrupted and the angel told him how it should've really been.

Galatians 1:6-9 in both Protestant and Catholic Christianity, which came long before the the Mormon faith says:
Quote
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Moroni was an angel from heaven, so to speak. Why Would God say 2000 years ago "let even angel from haven be cursed if it perverted my Gospel" and then an Angel comes down and does just that. Neither perception I consider correct, but imagining if one were correct, which would be more likely? Protestants/Catholics, or Mormons?

B) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.
South Park has one of the best introductions on the foundation of Mormonism you can watch in less than 7 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06jF1EG8o-Q
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: TheExDeus on July 12, 2014, 09:16:07 AM
I agree that it needs to be called "climate change", because otherwise people get wrong impression. That was an oversight of the original scientists (who wrote papers for the scientific community, not the general public), as they never meant that it will get warmer and warmer. This misunderstanding is clearly shown when in winters we have record low temperatures and some people see it as a "proof that global warming doesn't happen" - which totally misses the point about the global warming. So it's called man-made climate change now. And the impact of that is visible in many different ways (like the number and scale of hurricanes USA experiences). But I personally love all the projects countries now invest in, especially EU, where we have renewable energy, support for electric vehicles, reducing air-population and so on. Even if 50 years from now the whole thing ends up as a false alarm, the world is still better off. But that some scientists are looked at differently because their opinions differ is logical - difference in opinion creates friction. But that doesn't mean they are fired or ignored. They are in some places, but in many places they aren't. Also, it isn't about the money they get because they would get money in either case. Those who are against man-made climate change still get paid if they still work as climate scientists. It's of course harder for them to get grants, because the majority has different opinion and so the whole community has different goals. It's like if a group of scientists wanted to launch a satellite to find possible evidence for invisible pink unicorn, while the others want to launch a satellite to study other galaxies. Of course the one with the galaxies will get funding more easily, even if the unicorn one still had merit. Basically it's down to Occam's Razor.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 12, 2014, 10:23:24 AM
Another example : in Switzerland we heard during many years that global warming was terrible, because we will see no more snow in ski resorts.  But as we have seen more snow during the previous years, now the same who were talking about global warming say it's normal because it's climate change ! What a joke ! :D (Well, not so funny because we want to spend billions for this scam).

Actually most if not all the "scientists" that deny global warming/climate change are paid by the oil and vehicle companys, so I am more weary of what they say since it's more likely that them would "find" "proof" that pleases their employer than the other (bigger) portion of the scientists.

Climate has been recorded for a very long time:

(https://www2.ucar.edu/sites/default/files/news/2014/201301-201312.png)

Global average temperature since 1880. This graph from NOAA shows the annual trend in average global air temperature in degrees Celsius, through December 2013. For each year, the range of uncertainty is indicated by the gray vertical bars. The blue line tracks the changes in the trend over time. (Image courtesy NOAA's National Climatic Data Center.)

As the average temperature rises (more slowly than originaly predicted true), the polar icecaps melt and dwindle, this changes the temperature of the oceans and ultimately could even change/destroy the currents that go from the poles to the Ecuador, this would result in all the plankton disapearing which in turn would trigger a mass extintion in the oceans which more likely than not would be followed by a mass extinction in land too.

As TheExDeus said better safe than sorry, in this case Pascal's wager makes sense, if we stop pulluting the environment, stop using oil and turn to green energy sources, and turns out it was a false alarm what do we as a species lose? In return if we don't and it turns out to be true...

We could be the receivers of a Darwin's Prize to natural selection (too dumb and too proud to survive).

Did you know that in the USA most of the people that deny climate change do so because in the bible after the flood god promised to Noah never to kill everything again by a flood? And since the poles melting would cause an increase in sea levels (Global flood), this is in clear contradiction to god's word; and that prick has our best interest in mind of course, that's why he can't be bothered to make it clear he exists and stop once and for all the religious wars being fought right now in the world. And if you don't think there are religious wars... just check out who the USA atacked after 9/11, who else have they attacked, how many muslim countries are being bombarded by them, not to mention the ongoing war between Israel and the Muslim world. And lets not forget all the bombings being made by muslim terrorists so they can die as martirs and be granted 72 virgins in paradise!
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 12, 2014, 10:46:04 AM
Actually most if not all the "scientists" that deny global warming/climate change are paid by the oil and vehicle companys, so I am more weary of what they say since it's more likely that them would "find" "proof" that pleases their employer than the other (bigger) portion of the scientists.

You said that science should be concerned only about facts, and now you show the contrary ! ;D If some scientists don't agree with our dogma, they are all corrupted ! You are just using ad hominem attack, which is the contrary of a scientific approach. Very funny !

The key word here is likely, and that's what, to my view, makes what a said anything but ad hominem.

Facts are in the climate change camp favor and they are free to search and investigate in the web if you want to do so.

The problem with climate is that it's really complicated to understand all the variables involved and its effects on climate if any, check out the number and intensity of hurricanes, tornadoes, storms, hailstorms, the colder winters, in my country (México), more close to the ecuator than the USA we just had a "Spring" colder than ever, and this Summer doesn't look like it's gona be really hot (so far), and this is just what climate change predicts: the seasons will start to be less noticeable in some latitudes and more extreme in others, little by little the scientific predictions are comming true; lukily for us more slowly than originaly predicted, and what do we do? take advantage of the extra time to insure our survival? noooo, we turn against people who study the science and say since it didn't happen exactly when you said all is bulldoky, clever really clever humans.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: Rusky on July 12, 2014, 10:46:09 AM
Climate change is real, and really caused in part by humans. Those who deny it are just as bad as conspiracy theorists, religious fanatics, etc.- they can throw graphs at you with different time scales and talk about natural climate cycles all day, but the fact is our changes are bigger and faster and we're causing real problems.

And not to downplay the very real problems caused by global warming, why would you not want to reduce our waste and pollution? There are plenty of other, much less controversial reasons.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: Darkstar2 on July 12, 2014, 12:28:25 PM
Climate change, so people saying what we are experiencing is normal and always been ? Maybe to some extent but not the frequency and intensity.  On the topic of kids becoming more violent, more evil, more hate, school shootings every other day, etc.  Funny but back generations kids were more polite, respectful, they would not dare talk up to their professors or parents, etc, now is a whole different bloody story.  I do agree that humans play a role in their downfall but in my opinion, there is outside evil influence.
I stress though these are my opinions and beliefs I never claimed they were RIGHT.  It's a very delicate topic and difficult at the same time because there are lot of yet unanswered mysteries that even science cannot provide, so an opinion / belief is one thing and fact is another.  There are still big mysteries and unexplained things surrounding us.....some people think ETs will invade us, some people claim we live simultaneously in different dimensions, with different outcomes on our lives, etc......Can you answer the riddles and mysteries ? No, so at that point people will speculate.  Maybe all of this shite is just moot and we started from void and will return to void........ or maybe there is more.......but as long as we are in our physical bodies at this current state we will NEVER know all the answers, and maybe that is intentional or we would have been hard wired to know them.

I respect those who don't share these beliefs but I have yet to be convinced otherwise, that our lives would be wasted all for nothing, that there is no purpose, that we go through all this fucking bloody for nothing in the end.......I have a hard time with that :D

Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 12, 2014, 02:06:10 PM
@darkstar2:

Evil outside influence? You mean the devil made them doit? And when somebody does something good then god made them doit?

In my humble opinion that's hogwash, it's humans trying to avoid owning responsability for their own actions.

Kids more violent now than in past generations? Depends where you look, in the USA yes but that's not the devil, that's the rate of divorce, the all powerful dollar being more important than anything else, if you want to be the top dog in your line of work, you have to check if that ambition is compatible with having children, who said you have to do it all? some of us are not suited to have children, I strongly believe there should be a psichological test before marriage and another before having children.

Kids talking back... Well if you as a parent are never arround, never ofer any support, only criticyse and downplay any achievement of your children, and think that just because you donated half their genetic code they have to respect you and obey you uncuestionigly... You are wrong, I don't believe in following orders blindly, not even in the military, if your commander tells you to go and burn a hospital full of doctors, nurses and pacients just because they are of the wrong religion/color/status/etc. would you do it? I woudn't, I don't expect my son to blindly obey me, I preach by example, I don't do drugs (and never have) I don't drink (except for a glass or two on special ocasions) I don't steal, don't cheat, don't chase tail, I do pay my taxes, respect the law, etc. and when a rule is cuestioned I give reasons, not just because I say so!

Since in the judeo/christian religions the devil was created by god (before he was the devil he was an angel of the highest order) and since god is supossed to be allknowing... He should have known that lucifer was going to rebel even before creating him, then why create him? I wouldn't and I'm only an imperfect human. The plan, gods mysterious ways, everything happens for a reason; excuses and platitudes religious people are willing to make for their god but not for other humans nor in any other field.

The Devil's Advocate is a great film, and in the speach the devil gives to keanu lays a good amount of thrut and reason.

Why give us the ability to think and reason and then ask us to blindly believe in something? to never cuestion?

Faith is believing not only without evidence, but against all evidence in contraposition with your beliefs. Faith is the willful suspension of your ability to think, to reason, to analyze, to cuestion, and blindly follow orders. In what other aspect of our lives is the burden of proof placed in any other but the absurd claims? If I were to tell you that I have in my garage an invisible, intangible, all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent leprechaun, most of you would laugh at me and with just reason. If I claim that an invisible little man in my head talks to me and answer back when I talk to him I would be russhed to the nearest Psichiatric ward, put under heavy medication and probably never to see the outside again.

But if I claim it's god (Alah, Yahawe, Christ, Buda, etc.) who speaks to me then it's normal?

By the way people do come back from clynical death, but never, and I mean never has been a documented case of someone coming back after being brain dead. When you undergo surgery they don't attach you to an EKG or whatever is the name of the machine that measures brain activity, there's a cardiac monitor, one for blood presure and temperature even but not one for brain activity, if you don't believe me check it out.

The failure of prayer.- There have been double blind tests where of two groups of pacients with similar affections one groups names was given to people (that didn't knew it was a scientific test) to pray for the sick ones, neither group knew if there was people praying for them, and the results were that the rate and speed of recovery demonstrated ZERO impact of the prayers.

Also do you honestly believe that the parents of sick children do not pray for them?

That there are not people, right now praying for the war to end?

For a cure for cancer, hiv, and many other deseases?

For all the gays to die a horrible death?

And guess what, none of those prayers is ever answered, the people that do get cured from cancer either had a spontaneous remision (which do happens even to atheist or devil worshopers) or were under treatment and the scientific treatment cures them, but we always hear thank good joe nobody got cured from his cancer, if you ask was he in treatment? yes they say without even blinking, WTF? god cured him? Give me a breack!

By the way those people that want the gays to die, to be put to death, to have no rights... Those people are the ones following the Tora/Bible/Coran correctly not we that think it's not right to kill people based on their sexual preferences (unless they are child molesters, rapist and such).
Leviticus 20:13 http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm


It's those people that would be happy to stone me to death if they hearme say that god does not exist who are the true christians, not the ones that don't. Hebrews 6:4-8 and 2 Chronicles 15:13 among others http://www.openbible.info/topics/apostasy

It's the people that believe in witches and that they should be put to death the true belivers not the ones that don't. Exodus 22:18 http://biblehub.com/exodus/22-18.htm

It's the people that believe that those rebel children, the ones that talk back to their parents should be put to death, and their parents should be the ones making the chargers and throwing stones. Deuteronomy 21:20 http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/21-20.htm
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: TheExDeus on July 12, 2014, 02:06:30 PM
Quote
I respect those who don't share these beliefs but I have yet to be convinced otherwise, that our lives would be wasted all for nothing, that there is no purpose, that we go through all this fucking bloody for nothing in the end.......I have a hard time with that :D
But this is exactly what I was mentioning before. You think this life is somehow a "waste". I don't know you that well, so your life really could suck and be aimless. But mine isn't. And the fact that I find this life to be the only one is one of the most motivating factors to find a reason for it. If you understand that your life is 80 years and then nothing, then you start to respect those years and not waste them. You find many reasons, many motivations, many purposes. If you cannot find any besides "God and Heaven", then maybe "God" is to blame?
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 12, 2014, 02:30:35 PM
Quote
I respect those who don't share these beliefs but I have yet to be convinced otherwise, that our lives would be wasted all for nothing, that there is no purpose, that we go through all this fucking bloody for nothing in the end.......I have a hard time with that :D
But this is exactly what I was mentioning before. You think this life is somehow a "waste". I don't know you that well, so your life really could suck and be aimless. But mine isn't. And the fact that I find this life to be the only one is one of the most motivating factors to find a reason for it. If you understand that your life is 80 years and then nothing, then you start to respect those years and not waste them. You find many reasons, many motivations, many purposes. If you cannot find any besides "God and Heaven", then maybe "God" is to blame?

God is not to blame since blaming a non existing entity for something is a waste of time, religion is to blame, if every religion is man made as darkstar2 correctly stated... what about the gods those religions worship?

As TheExDeus says, anything is more precious, more valuable if there's little of it, time is precious because we can't make more of it, also the environment since we can't create another earth, what about my life? can anybody give a nanosecond more of it? No and since it's going to end sometime in the distant future (I hope) it's the most precious, the most valuable commodity I have, not to be squandered in any way.

The past is gone, the future may not come, so live today as if it were the last day of your life.

In other words : Carpe diem
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 12, 2014, 02:31:53 PM
@TKG:

Contradictions you are searching?

Well search no more : http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: TheExDeus on July 12, 2014, 02:44:10 PM
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God is not to blame since blaming a non existing entity for something is a waste of time, religion is to blame, if every religion is man made as darkstar2 correctly stated... what about the gods those religions worship?
I put "God" in quotes for a reason. What I was trying to say was that "your belief in God makes you not value your life".
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 12, 2014, 02:55:56 PM
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God is not to blame since blaming a non existing entity for something is a waste of time, religion is to blame, if every religion is man made as darkstar2 correctly stated... what about the gods those religions worship?
I put "God" in quotes for a reason. What I was trying to say was that "your belief in God makes you not value your life".

Sorry my bad, I stand corrected.  :)
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: time-killer-games on July 12, 2014, 04:15:41 PM
Oh would you look what I started.

FUCK.

Darkstar2 please don't turn into what I've grown out of. :P

Play nice children.

Edit: Thx edsquare that is quite the find. *highfive* :D

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@TKG:

Contradictions you are searching?

Well search no more : http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 12, 2014, 04:37:42 PM
Oh would you look what I started.

FUCK.

Darkstar2 please don't turn into what I've grown out of. :P

Play nice children.

Edit: Thx edsquare that is quite the find. *highfive* :D

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@TKG:

Contradictions you are searching?

Well search no more : http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

And to think that not so long ago you were a full blown creationist... :)

Well I used to be pedling superstition and ignorance to my fellow humans so...
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: Darkstar2 on July 13, 2014, 01:07:30 PM
You were priest / minister whatever it was your job to peddle, I'm not a minister, just have my beliefs usually I keep them to myself and could bloody care less what people around me think, I respect what they think though, but since the topic was open I added my 2 cents. I'm sharing what I believe but don't tell people don't believe or that they are crazy for not believing nor do I use insults or personal attacks to people not having the same faith, :P but I guess not everyone is like that.

In all fairness, it is true that there are contradictions and crap everywhere but both sides, religion used as a tool to brainwash people and make it an industry......AND the other side trying to discredit religion and faith (but NOT for the right reasons) just as a tool for shite stirring, propaganda and their own agendas, so the 2 sides are guilty......:D

Yet these same people still fail to answer the questions.....many things science cannot explain, people seem to deny it.  Of course this is no "PROOF" of a God per se, but again, there is no EVIDENCE that there is nothing outside our physical realm......  Those who say "Nah there is no God, no nothing" still cannot answer these mysteries, they are not even willing to believe in the notion there is something more out there, outside the physical world. but that's ok.

Some people who flame and send personal attacks you have not lived experienced nor are you experienced in life.....  Let's forget about Religion and God for a moment, put that aside and explain how some people are the nicest people with the best of intentions and get the biggest crap out of life, failing in everything they do, it's as if they have a shite magnet, no matter how positive or what they do........ There are many people like that, hence the theory we are born predisposed for certain things, out of our control, how to explain this ? Who's experiment are we ?

That said, this is the last I contribute to this topic.  I respect what others say and their beliefs I expect the same but I guess that seems too much to ask......I don't know how old you lot are, but I am one those motherfuckers described herein, that has gone out of my way to think of others and do good and yet I seem to have a shite magnet gene.....so yeah.......What do I know right ? But that has never deterred me from my faith though because on the counter side, I have things others don't, and I could brag.  So it's all about how people deal with shite and what you make of what you have and not what you don't.

That said I think people misunderstand.  There are many types of people, religious, fanatics, etc. I'm not religious motherfuckers, far from it, not even close to practicing catholic, but I have faith and I work differently than a typical religious person, I don't let dictate my life, and there are lot of rubbish I don't buy into either, you'd be surprised, most people who know me would probably take me for an atheist as I am not quite the example of a typical "religion incrusted catholic".  I believe in a supreme being and I believe we are only part of something bigger.... That's it......
And I do acknowledge the flaws of religion and its atrocities, most fanatics would never admit that, so I think there has been some misunderstanding or people have not fully read and comprehend. :D

Cheers.

Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: TheExDeus on July 13, 2014, 01:50:56 PM
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Yet these same people still fail to answer the questions.....many things science cannot explain, people seem to deny it.  Of course this is no "PROOF" of a God per se, but again, there is no EVIDENCE that there is nothing outside our physical realm......  Those who say "Nah there is no God, no nothing" still cannot answer these mysteries, they are not even willing to believe in the notion there is something more out there, outside the physical world. but that's ok.
People don't just "answer to the mysteries" because we don't want to make the same mistake people made hundreds and thousands of years ago - answering without knowing (could also be called "Oblivious to Ignorance"). If you asked a person 2000 years ago how freaking fire worked, he would probably explain it with superstition. If you asked a person (a "scientist" for example) 500 years ago why we don't feel earth moving around the sun, then they wouldn't be able to answer. If you asked them how humans came to be, then they wouldn't be able to answer. And it's normal that they wouldn't now, but it's not normal that the person asking those questions think they are somehow a "got'ya" questions that somehow disproves the person or science. Of course we cannot explain all those "mysteries", but that doesn't mean there is god either. It doesn't mean there is "something more". All it is the "god of gaps" fallacy. So that is why people stopped answering those bullshit questions, because religious nuts (and I don't mean you, you are rational) think not knowing something automatically means the whole idea is wrong. But in religion they think they know everything - "God did it" being the classical answer. So they don't understand why a rational system like science, even with it's unknowns, could be better. And worse of all - they don't understand that not knowing today doesn't mean we won't know in 100 years. Bible "answered" a lot of questions people were asking 2000 years ago, now we know better. And religious people cling with their lives to any little mystery there still remains, because until we know everything with 100% certainty, they still can have "hope" in their book (or god).

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Some people who flame and send personal attacks you have not lived experienced nor are you experienced in life.....  Let's forget about Religion and God for a moment, put that aside and explain how some people are the nicest people with the best of intentions and get the biggest crap out of life, failing in everything they do, it's as if they have a shite magnet, no matter how positive or what they do........ There are many people like that, hence the theory we are born predisposed for certain things, out of our control, how to explain this ? Who's experiment are we ?
But your whole proposition is wrong. You already think we are controlled by something or that our "karma" or something similar influence our lives. Bad people aren't punished by god, they are punished by us, the society (we have prisons for a reason). Good people aren't rewarded by god, they are reward by us. If you are in a place or situation that you - even being good - have a bad life, then you are just in the wrong place. You are in a place where you are not respected or valued. If get on a deserted island, then it won't matter if you were a saint or a murderous lunatic. Your life would be exactly the same.

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I believe in a supreme being and I believe we are only part of something bigger.... That's it......
And I doubt anyone here has problem with that. It was a discussion, nothing more. I don't think anyone went personal here.
Title: Re: Holes in everything...
Post by: edsquare on July 13, 2014, 03:49:07 PM
You were priest / minister whatever it was your job to peddle, I'm not a minister, just have my beliefs usually I keep them to myself and could bloody care less what people around me think, I respect what they think though, but since the topic was open I added my 2 cents. I'm sharing what I believe but don't tell people don't believe or that they are crazy for not believing nor do I use insults or personal attacks to people not having the same faith, :P but I guess not everyone is like that.

If I offended you please accept my most sicere apologies, that wasn't my intention.

In all fairness, it is true that there are contradictions and crap everywhere but both sides, religion used as a tool to brainwash people and make it an industry......AND the other side trying to discredit religion and faith (but NOT for the right reasons) just as a tool for shite stirring, propaganda and their own agendas, so the 2 sides are guilty......:D

Yet these same people still fail to answer the questions.....many things science cannot explain, people seem to deny it.  Of course this is no "PROOF" of a God per se, but again, there is no EVIDENCE that there is nothing outside our physical realm......  Those who say "Nah there is no God, no nothing" still cannot answer these mysteries, they are not even willing to believe in the notion there is something more out there, outside the physical world. but that's ok.

The problem here is that those who make extraordinary claims have the burden of proof, in other words is the ones saying there is something that exists beyond time and space the ones that need to prove it and not the other way around, since it's almost impossible toproof the negative, you can only disprove the studies, experiments that make a claim.

Some people who flame and send personal attacks you have not lived experienced nor are you experienced in life.....  Let's forget about Religion and God for a moment, put that aside and explain how some people are the nicest people with the best of intentions and get the biggest crap out of life, failing in everything they do, it's as if they have a shite magnet, no matter how positive or what they do........ There are many people like that, hence the theory we are born predisposed for certain things, out of our control, how to explain this ? Who's experiment are we ?

Again, if somehow I offended you I apologise, now why do bad things happen to good people?
I don't know for sure but maybe because shit happens?
Why not to them? If bad things happened only to bad people you'd have grounds to state that there is something taking a desicion, since the law of probabilities says it shouldn't be that way.

Why me? Why not me? I come from a broken home, my father never was around (And he coul habe been if he wanted) He had money yet I went to public schools while the childs of his second marriage went to private schools, he took them to Disney while I was in bed with a severe gastroenteritis (Almost died of that one!), and I wasn't a bad boy, I was more close to what some call a golden boy (except for the atletic part).

This supreme being either doesn't exists, is a complete sadistic or incopetent (so much for the all knowing, all powerful loving god hypothesis).

That said, this is the last I contribute to this topic.  I respect what others say and their beliefs I expect the same but I guess that seems too much to ask......I don't know how old you lot are, but I am one those motherfuckers described herein, that has gone out of my way to think of others and do good and yet I seem to have a shite magnet gene.....so yeah.......What do I know right ? But that has never deterred me from my faith though because on the counter side, I have things others don't, and I could brag.  So it's all about how people deal with shite and what you make of what you have and not what you don't.

That said I think people misunderstand.  There are many types of people, religious, fanatics, etc. I'm not religious motherfuckers, far from it, not even close to practicing catholic, but I have faith and I work differently than a typical religious person, I don't let dictate my life, and there are lot of rubbish I don't buy into either, you'd be surprised, most people who know me would probably take me for an atheist as I am not quite the example of a typical "religion incrusted catholic".  I believe in a supreme being and I believe we are only part of something bigger.... That's it......
And I do acknowledge the flaws of religion and its atrocities, most fanatics would never admit that, so I think there has been some misunderstanding or people have not fully read and comprehend. :D

Cheers.

Lapsed christian, non practicyng christian but a christian, and therefore religious, being religious has less to do to going to church than it does with personal beliefs, actitudes and convictions.

Peace brother and hope that once again if somehow, inadvertently I managed to offend you, you can forgive me.