Darkstar2
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Reply #15 Posted on: May 02, 2014, 07:15:45 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1238
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I'm not saying Robert didn't do that before. He was the number one guy doing it until you came along.
yeah but was he also spanked ? I agree with all his points, he did but he also made lot of arguments to back up his rants, can't say I disagreed with any of his comments as I read them, but anyway, really, is this a trial ? LOL I mean this is bloody ridiculous, are we on trial ??!?!?!?!?!? Like the GMC community is far from perfect, I could bring up tons of shit that happened over the years, maybe now it is more tightly moderated but it wasn't exactly perfect. You know what I think ? I think this whole discussion is a set up to start something or get people against one another. These things are typical on forums, person X rants about something, then you get flocks coming in from the woodwork and stirring up the pot, then they leave for a while. Not going to work. I guess I should fucking keep my comments to myself from now on, the YoYo police is watching ! Perhaps it would make them feel better if I started ranting against ENIGMA instead.......I could really, I'd have shiteloads to say too, but it would be rather odd for me considering what I paid for ENIGMA vs. what I paid to YYG LOL! In the past few years people once in a while ranted about how YYG sucks. I might have contributed a post or two about that as well. But "devs" usually didn't do that. Like what do you consider a "dev" here? The only devs you probably know that are still here are me, Robert, Josh and Rusky. And me, Josh and Rusky usually don't bash YYG. At least lately (as in past 2 years).
I haven't contributed much posts on the forums over the years there but I was very active in following up on posts. You should see some of the violent attacks YYG got over the years on their community forum and blogs at the time, by its users, from the very start when they acquired GM, to years later, every step of the way on the decisions being made, major upgrade revision not delivering that many new features, issues left unresolved for long periods, poor support who don't answer your questions or answer with something totally irrelevant; the whole skull & pirates thing ,DRM, then until recently the removing of windows function with the arrogant reply "that's the way it is, do your own", the misleading people (and this is something few will forget) YYC compiler, etc etc etc..... YYG has tolerated FAR worse over the years on their own community from members than everything said here combined. Some of the attacks people made there on the comments section in their old blog were personal in nature and some attacked a person directly ...... So what is said here is quite tame in comparaison ! Also lot of bashing on the GMC, I read the posts, many got removed that's why their forum appears clean and people being happy. There is a HUGE bias, if they are moderating, editing and deleting posts, and here there is none of that, so it makes it seem like the GM community is mostly composed of happy people and here, mostly YYG haters. and there is your bias, but I clearly am witness to reading those posts on the GMC before they got removed !!!! Many of those instigators of those topics were "removed" too from the forum. That says a lot, because some of the rants and complaints were valid and were backed up and supported by many who responded. Funny how those posts are long gone. but some of us happen to read them and remember. I've also witnessed them banning a helpful contributor there for no reason, without warning and without even an explanation or reason, and that is not the first time either. So when some people come here and use the term "irrational" bashing of YYG, I tend to disagree for the reasons stipulated herein. Most of the criticism I have read here is quite one sided or not really thought trough. Like the topic about deprecated functions or the registry functions or whatever. Again, I don't really care though. Just point out.
I've made some of the comments. Now on the flip side, doesn't ENIGMA support those very same deprecated functions ? Must be a reason for that or the ENIGMA developers would have not found it reasonable to keep them. If you pay attention and read my posts carefully you would see that I DID understand the reason for why YoYoGame had to remove some functions and restrict folder access and other shit, and that it was all about app store compliancy and security reasons. HOWEVER, I did make it very clear and point out WHERE I think YYG's excuses were NON warranted and ridiculous, mainly the functions for video. I mean look at other game making engines, they have that function and yet they support multi platform. So they could not claim to have removed video because of the mobile ports now could they ? because that would be rubbish, as I've seen cut scenes and video on mobile apps/games, etc. they simply did not want to work their arses in adapting it to multi export and so removed it. I also pointed out where they have gone wrong with their infrastructure inside GM. Look at ENIGMA and how it's designed, should it ever support mobile exports, it won't have to deprecate windows commands like YYG did. So again this all comes down to the many things said about YYG are justified and backed up with valid and reasonable arguments. I don't think that it originally was. I can't remember clearly now (been years), but I think the original plan really was just that - "Make a free GM clone". It wasn't really about improving something. That is why we strived for compatibility above everything else. Only in about past 2 years have we diverged from that. Maybe Josh remembers better as ENIGMA was his idea.
Great then, so what started with just the idea of making a free GM clone turned out into making something that exceeds GM, in some areas and where certain things are better handled. Not such a bad thing after all. That is probably because even the website was a learning experience. We had a cool guy a2h who just wanted to make as cool as site as possible and to learn something while doing that. I am pretty sure he is a web programmer now (though I don't know for sure). There was even a plan for even cooler site (http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=610.0 and http://enigma-dev.org/v5test/ (now trows PHP errors, just like EDC)) but that was never finished (as always here.. ). It did make ENIGMA look even more like a product though. That is why we probably didn't make it live.
That's the mistake and what gives the wrong impression of ENIGMA, that it is a finished product. Then you have people using it and complaining of stuff not working and that gives ammo to YoYo Fans to go and write that ENIGMA is not all that to be like was done on the GMC. YoYoGame can redeem themselves and might gain back some of the people who left or lost hope completely. Let's see what they make of the new IDE, I'm guessing probably around summer, and the new GameMaker revision (codename Next) don't know if it's going to be called GMS 2 or what not.....they should raise the bar quite high because I remember people were quite disappointed with previous upgrades and made it very clear. If they really listen and take criticism, they could play it to their advantage. Now I would be curious for the non MASTER COLLECTION users like myself, who own the GMS Pro, well I have the GMS Pro + HTMl5, how many have paid the $300 for the YYC ? They took quite a lot of heat on their forum when this happened, also some posts mysteriously are gone now (how convenient !) but I was there and read them. Is it reasonable for a Windows only user who exports only to windows, to spend $300 for a YYC? Their reasoning for charging $300 is because it includes exports for YYC Windows YYC Android YYC IOS. How the HELL is that valid for a GMS Pro user who don't have these exports and only want to use windows ? Why the fuck should we cough up the price for 3 exports when we use 1 ! SO yeah, this is only ONE example of many bad decisions they made. And I won't name any names, but some angry members who have left the community openly brag about using pirated versions of GMS and MASTER, so what they were trying to prevent was actually the opposite. Using a pirated version was never in my plans and that's when I found ENIGMA. Some people are developing with a pirated version and releasing shit, and that is FACT. This is something I would never personally do. The right thing to do was to split the YYC compiler depending on your set up. Windows only export, you pay for YYC Windows. Android export, you pay for windows + android and so forth. But they are known for being lazy so it was easier to just charge one price. I feel that $300 is a rip-off as do many. and the way they figured the $300 is by 3 exports (99/99/99, windows/android/IOS....) So quite a blow to the windows only user who would be paying the bundle price for 2 other exports they don't have !!!!
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Goombert
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Reply #17 Posted on: May 02, 2014, 09:48:28 pm |
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Location: Cappuccino, CA Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2993
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Harri did an awesome job summing up, I learned a lot from working on ENIGMA too. But it just led me to realize how badly designed GM is compared to other engines, so I just ended up hating it.
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I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.
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Darkstar2
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Reply #18 Posted on: May 02, 2014, 11:04:07 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1238
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Harri did an awesome job summing up, I learned a lot from working on ENIGMA too. But it just led me to realize how badly designed GM is compared to other engines, so I just ended up hating it.
It's badly designed compared to other engines, but you have to admit it's probably the best one to use for beginners / newbies and the easiest for someone who wants to dabble with easy to learn scripting. Otherwise you have shit like drag & click to build Game builder type engines with prefabs and everything set just click.... I may think it does not deserve an award for "best game engine" on a global perspective, but if judged solely on level of difficulty, I'd give it an award on that alone. Learning curve, getting around the IDE, the concept of building games with objects, events, D&D, etc. That is what Mark Overmars meant for GM to be, accessible to everyone who wants to make games without all the complication of code and a steep learning curve. Eventually i'm sure people as they gain more interest in advanced stuff, would want to move to the next level.
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Darkstar2
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Reply #19 Posted on: May 02, 2014, 11:30:34 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1238
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Regardless of literally everything you just said, this community has a problem. You are part of it. No excuses.
Right, ok. and because certain aspects of GMS suck I'm also part of that too. So what's your view of a community, who the fuck made you forum police ? Are you an admin ? moderator ? Show me the motherfucking rules, terms of service, whatever.....are you to decide what gets discussed here or what not ? You've made some negative rants about GM too and some quite recently, and funny but even though you are being an ass, I agreed Or are you trying to make this forum into another GMC? On forums people discuss good or bad, positive and negative. If I am part of a "problem" then where do you fit in? Are you trying to make things better, other than policing the community with your rubbish ? Again, don't you see the irony, you got a forum badge, and to be honest fits you perfectly so with a "troll" badge you go around spewing rubbish and deciding what's good and what not for this community. You think you are making things better with your highly inflammatory, and provocative remarks ? You think I will back down and change my mind ? I WON'T, because, remember who's the troll....... My comments were genuine and everything I said about my discontent with said company and software was valid, and backed up already. The moment someone makes a remark that is negative on a forum it is perceived a "problem"? You would be best fit as an admin / moderator on the GMC. IS that what you want this place to be ? Let's continue with ENIGMA discussions. I don't purposely invoke GMS into discussions it just comes into context. If we are talking about a specific feature in ENIGMA and topics lead to one thing and I mention it, "oh BTW, that is poorly done in GMS, and hate it......".that is NOT a bad thing.....It's a discussion, so long as it's backed up with arguments and facts. The same way you gave arguments as to why you thought GM made crappy games and went on ranting about it. It's up to whoever is running this place to decide. If it is deemed inappropriate to discuss YYG or GMS here then so be it, say the word i'll follow it. But i'm not going to sit here and listen to some resident TROLL and his YYG shilling flame mongering. I say what I say, brutally honest and to the point, but I mean it. So be it. Now that I became aware of it, I guess I should just not take anything you say to have any value , since you probably are just stirring the pot. BTW, I joined in January 2014, but looking back to the forum Q4 2013, basically it was mostly flaming, arguing, bitching, developers who disagree with one another, people accusing one another, etc. So what's the bigger problem for this community ? me talking against GM ( not that I'm the only one ) or the tirade amongst developers who can't agree on things and endless arguments.....which do you think is more harmful. When I joined this community there already WAS a problem underway, and a big one.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 12:16:21 am by Darkstar2 »
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Darkstar2
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Reply #20 Posted on: May 02, 2014, 11:47:57 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1238
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Oh yeah Russel, let me quote you on something you said quite recently GM has crappy games because it's easy to use... and harder than necessary to make good games with. This is the limitation that matters. There are new tools (and alternate conceptions of existing ones) that other game engines have or could have that GM does not, that make it easier to focus on the game design and polish and spend less time on bookwork. GM is actually relatively low-level as far as describing game behavior goes.
LOL! So I'm assuming your alleged employment with YYG started after April 4th. (obvious sarcasm!) BTW do you even have GMS installed on your system ? do you even use it ? So it must be so amazing that you went ahead and started DejaVu right ?
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 01:06:04 am by Darkstar2 »
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Goombert
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Reply #21 Posted on: May 03, 2014, 12:09:29 am |
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Location: Cappuccino, CA Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2993
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I am not talking about that, I am talking about GM being retarded unnecessarily, my main complaint is graphics and the ridiculous *.d3d mesh format. And I don't want to hear arguments like, "well write your own OBJ loader dumbass", NO! When you pay 800$ for a game engine, it should at least be able to handle the most basic mesh format like every other game engine offers you even in their free version.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 12:11:13 am by Robert B Colton »
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I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.
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Darkstar2
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Reply #22 Posted on: May 03, 2014, 12:22:33 am |
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1238
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I am not talking about that, I am talking about GM being retarded unnecessarily, my main complaint is graphics and the ridiculous *.d3d mesh format. And I don't want to hear arguments like, "well write your own OBJ loader dumbass", NO! When you pay 800$ for a game engine, it should at least be able to handle the most basic mesh format like every other game engine offers you even in their free version.
There you go !!! This is what I've been saying all along and complaining about, their attitude ! You are basically saying exactly what i've been saying, though more technically. The "NO!!! do your own shit because we won't do it for you" is one of my main gripes about YYG, this is fact, I can swear on anything that they did say that. kinda defeats the whole purpose of GM if they go around telling people, mostly beginner level to go fuck themselves and make their own feature because they won't do it. lol. Even worse, REMOVING a feature that was used by people with some lame excuses and then telling people to just do without or make their own. What is so irrational in saying that ? If it were FREE they might earn the right to say that, there again maybe not if you have ethics, but otherwise a paying software that had a feature that got removed for no reason and necessarily, people have a right to be pissed....even more those who pay $800! an $800 software that does not have the basic functionality that other competitor product have in their standard versions..........So by their definition they should remove physics, shaders, audio, and ask people to do their own ! lol. But someone once told me, never argue with Scottish ! I reckon Mark Overmars would never have been as rude with his customers, telling paying and loyal customers a NO!!! or to take it or leave it, or live with it that's how we do it now, so go do your own we won't do it for you type......that's plain rude.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 12:27:48 am by Darkstar2 »
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Goombert
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Reply #24 Posted on: May 03, 2014, 01:19:32 pm |
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Location: Cappuccino, CA Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2993
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Yeah but Harri, I can give credit where credit is due, one of which being I think EA releases made Studio much less buggy, it was a good improvement. I also liked the addition of regular game pads like the Xbox 360 and PS3 controller, they were really good additions and the functions were awesome. But I can't say the same about their other half-assed and rushed implementations like Box2D, and the audio which they kept having to change and deprecate new functions. They already have 10 new audio_* functions that they created that already deprecated, that shows they aren't taking the time they need to really do a good job. So I wouldn't say anybody is being negative, I think I am fairly balanced on the issue.
Also, Darkstar makes 10 posts everytime he posts, lol, that's not necessarily relevant to this at all.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 01:21:12 pm by Robert B Colton »
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I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who once said something along the lines of "If you build the robots, they will make games." or something to that effect.
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Darkstar2
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Reply #25 Posted on: May 03, 2014, 02:49:01 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1238
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Is this the trial of Robert & Darkstar2 ? Why the bloody hell do any of us have to justify ourselves, this is getting ridiculous, why am I even bothering ! LOL. Fuck me! My bad for feeding trolls. So how is it better for a community with trolls and fanboys going around dissecting negative or any posts from other members. For fucksake, I didn't know this was a GM fans club ! It isn't. really do a good job. So I wouldn't say anybody is being negative, I think I am fairly balanced on the issue.
Exactly, I don't think most of what people say here about YYG/GM/GMS is unfair, I think facts speak for themselves. Also, Darkstar makes 10 posts everytime he posts, lol, that's not necessarily relevant to this at all.
The long posts I feel are necessary for explaining into detail to avoid any misinterpretation. If I were to say "GMS sucks my hairy balls" that's 1 line, is that better or is it better to go into details as to why I feel a certain way ? I will try to keep it short. The longest reply / post I ever wrote on a forum was 35 pages full, and I'm not kidding ! But in a very specific case this was to my advantage in the end. SO yeah I will do my best to shorten the post unless I feel I have no choice otherwise in some specific case. As far as my opinions on GM/YYG, they won't change, so whenever I have something negative to say I will bloody say it, there will always be fanboys and YYG defenders, fine by me. I am a PAID user so I think I can rant and be negative if I want to, when it is warranted, considering the features I wanted were present at the time I spent my money on said software and were later removed for completely retarded reasons. Moving along now.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 03:03:51 pm by Darkstar2 »
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Darkstar2
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Reply #27 Posted on: May 03, 2014, 05:39:39 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1238
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He is, his goal is to stir shit up and he succeeded and it was my mistake to get into it He didn't earn his title for nothing. He took the personal attack route, and I will defend myself to that. I am always open to discussing hot sometimes controversial topics even if they are negative, who's he to decide what gets said around here. , I will say what I have to say about GM /YYG, if it is a problem for the community, then they should go dig posts from 2013 and before. or know what to do 1) Set rules 2) Moderate and police like they do on GMC. But it is obvious that I am not here to fight about GayMaker studio, but just so happen to express my gripes when there is context into the discussion. That's all. This forum was way negative and inflammatory long before I joined. PROOF is there. devs can't seem to get along and have big differences in what needs to be done and how and when, THAT, is the biggest problem derailing enigma, not my negative remarks on GMS lol. You can continue feeding the trolls like I did But I don't think this is productive ,why don't we go back to discussing ENIGMA stuff shall we Maybe I should not respond to anymore of this rubbish but if I see some personal attacks and flames I WILL defend myself make no mistake.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 06:52:34 pm by Darkstar2 »
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TheExDeus
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Reply #29 Posted on: May 04, 2014, 02:17:38 am |
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1860
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He took the personal attack route, and I will defend myself to that. And when did he do that? His only quote that is actually in any way related to you is this: My goal in this conversation is not so much to defend YYG per se, but to call you out your pointless BS that's derailing the community. And that is his opinion and he is entitled to it. In the posts after that you actually kind of proved his point. So in essence you seem like a troll, not him. So no, he is not a troll and there was no "personal attack". He just stated an opinion you partly proved. You took it WAAAYYY to personal or even seriously. This forum was way negative and inflammatory long before I joined. PROOF is there. devs can't seem to get along and have big differences in what needs to be done and how and when, THAT, is the biggest problem derailing enigma, not my negative remarks on GMS lol. I personally don't really know what you mean. Forums were and still are unmoderated, so there were many for fun posts like in the "nonsense" section. But no one ever took anything of that seriously. Like putting a word "fuck" as an error in ENIGMA isn't meant to be "negative", it's just how hobby programmers usually do it.
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