ENIGMA Forums

General fluff => Off-Topic => Topic started by: I_must_be_a_shill on May 01, 2014, 01:28:28 pm

Title: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: I_must_be_a_shill on May 01, 2014, 01:28:28 pm
My login name says it all. Not what I am, but what I expect to be treated as.

I've been investigating game development environments and stumbled up Enigma. Others are Game Maker, Unity, Game Salad.

I played with Enigma, had stability issues. But, what finally made my decision for me was these forums. Finding technical information and basic usage information is tedious. Coming to these forums, expecting to get  relevant information was useless.

This isn't a community devoted to creating a game development system. Its a group of angry misfits whose only common quality is irrational anger towards another company whose software they want to model themselves after.

I don't see effort and energy being devoted to the product, but directed at Game Maker and YoYoGames.

Why would I want to use such a product? Why would I want to be associated with all this hatred.

Do you guys seriously expect anybody to use a product? Or more importantly, do you guys really expect to attract anybody with skill to contribute to your project knowing its mandate is less about creation, but more about hurting others.

If you guys really are serious about creating something important, that I would strongly suggest you take a serious look at your attitude and the appearance that you are portraying. You guys are not coming off as a group of devoted programmers, but a pack of losers.

I don't expect to be taken serious and fully expect the attack dogs to be focused on this post. No matter. I'll check back in a year or so, where I'm guessing I'll see the same old posts attacking Game Maker and you guys making mountains from molehills wondering why you're not being taken seriously.

How many years has it been?
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: daz on May 01, 2014, 01:33:41 pm
For the most part, people responding to ENIGMA issues seem to be friendly and on topic.

As soon as you point out a feature request or feature that GM has that is missing from ENIGMA though...

Every community has some good and bad. Just look at the GMC. While it's not full of people hating on competitors, there are too many trolls to count.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: egofree on May 01, 2014, 01:58:30 pm
A person who is ranting about people who are ranting, how original !  :D
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Rusky on May 01, 2014, 02:03:55 pm
I like to think the people who actually work on ENIGMA are a little more balanced, and the fact that it's a spin-off of GM just means it inevitably attracts the malcontents that already exist.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on May 01, 2014, 02:22:40 pm
This is one place where I have to agree with Rusky, sometimes I'm over the top, but the OP doesn't understand I don't even like ENIGMA, and the only person that contributes here anymore is me, and I've spent the majority of my time doing that, I have no control over what people want to come here and say, that's their opinion, and I can't help it I usually agree with them.

Also, as daz pointed out, our help and support is usually top of the line and we get things fixed usually right away if it is a small bug, new features however are usually put aside for priority.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 01, 2014, 07:50:35 pm
I like to think the people who actually work on ENIGMA are a little more balanced, and the fact that it's a spin-off of GM just means it inevitably attracts the malcontents that already exist.

Isn't that the purpose Rusky ? Why would someone leave GMS to use ENIGMA, if they are happy with GMS and if GMS can fit a person's individual purpose by all means they should stick to GMS.  There are some specific cases where you need particular functions not possible to do with GMS, or for other reasons, say your game is CPU intensive and you want it compiled and not get ripped off $300.
Most of the discontent with YYG were expressed by ENIGMA devs themslves, as they were GMC members too !  It's funny how the OP points out things here and has not mentioned the flame, trolling and other problems of the GMC community over the year, many of the things that happened on the GMC at the time would be enough to turn new people away too. 

The devs here have been extremely helpful to newbies, understanding, patient, willing to help, which is not always the case on the GMC.   

When I came to ENIGMA I was aware of the discontent from people here, I read these posts and I myself shared those.  I think sufficient arguments were made to back up the discontent with FACTS.  I think the devs here did a good job of making arguments for their opinions.  There is a difference between someone saying "YYG sucks !" and backing up with facts.

I think the OP has a very unfair assessment of the ENIGMA project and its community.

Nobody claimed it was a stable or finished product.  Yes it still has lots to be fixed / improved upon but has gotten a long way and still functional for lots of things.  It has a shitload of issues and things to be done, gimme a couple of years to learn C++ and JAVA and I might get it back on its feet again :D

The OP makes it seem that the forum is only about flame wars and anger........

When you ask help around here you get it, in a friendly way.   I have asked tons of questions here and never was I mistreated, I've never been called a "n00b" or "newbie" etc, contrary to what I witnessed on the GMC over the years how some newbies get treated.

My main discontent with YYG was with removing functions I required for my games, and the reason behind them removing it which was unwarranted and silly.  Keep in mind when I PAID for the product they had the features in them.  What did it for me, was the $300 compiler, which is a bundle price including 3 YYCs.  As a GMS Pro user I only have the HTMl5 and windows exports and only intend to do windows for now, so why the hell would I want to pay for a bundle price that includes 3 YYC exports, where I can only use 1 export since I don't have the others.  Unfair and unreasonable. 

But since YYG can do whatever they want with their shit, then I think it works for users too who can do what they want.

Despite ENIGMA's many shortcomings, I am still very happy to have found ENIGMA and this friendly community. and some of these shortcomings were fixed (many were addressed since I came here) at a much faster pace than YYG resolves issues and for that I was thankful and impressed. 

So you don't like ENIGMA's community, that's your opinion and by all means, if you like YYG and their ways or GMS, then continue using it.  I am STILL a GMS user, I paid for the software and I do intend to continue using it.  If ENIGMA cannot fulfill my needs for a given project, no problem, I'll use GMS, and vice versa.  I just appreciate more how ENIGMA handles things and their support.  And thanks to ENIGMA it has lit my interest in learning C++ and beyond.

You still think this community is about angry dogs hating on YYG, that's your opinion. you make it seem as if everyone here is only doing that instead of developing ENIGMA !  That is unreasonable and unfair.

And a quote from Robert
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Also, as daz pointed out, our help and support is usually top of the line and we get things fixed usually right away if it is a small bug, new features however are usually put aside for

Very well said ! Lots of times people write bug reports they get answers the same day, sometimes minutes later, and a fix is released same day.

Look at the time span between V1.2 latest version and latest 1.3 early build, so much has been addressed and fixed with ENIGMA, that is moving at a far greater pace even considering it is severely understaffed and maintained mostly by 1 or 2 people ATM.

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Rusky on May 02, 2014, 01:40:28 am
You sound like a conspiracy theorist, yelling about FACTS, and you're playing right into the OP's description of ENIGMA. Why would someone use ENIGMA over GMS? Because it's open source, because it's free, and because it has the potential to do things differently than GMS (not that it's currently living up to that). Problems with GMS are not the only, nor should they be the main, reason to use ENIGMA. That's just sad.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on May 02, 2014, 01:57:43 am
Quote from: Rusky
Because it's open source, because it's free, and because it has the potential to do things differently than GMS (not that it's currently living up to that). Problems with GMS are not the only, nor should they be the main, reason to use ENIGMA.
That's a conflicting statement when you consider most of what ENIGMA does differently is an attempt to improve where they went wrong.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 02, 2014, 03:22:07 am
Problems with GMS are not the only, nor should they be the main, reason to use ENIGMA. That's just sad.

Thanks for proving my point.  There are many reasons for a person to want to come here.  Some might not agree with the direction YYG is taking GM.  Some might not agree with their handling of support and community.  Some might not agree with all the functions they removed from GMS for silly reasons.  Some might not agree to be allegedly ripped off $300 for a compiler, and the list goes on.

Why am I here? ENIGMA being FREE is not the main one. I already spent money several times on buying from YYG.

* They are inflexible and give excuses.  Removing functions that could be useful for larger games and advanced handling.  They decide on compressing your audio regardless of the format, ENIGMA handles your audio intact.  ENIGMA supports video functions.  You could make interactive MYST like games, interactive apps, games with cut scenes, etc.  Can't bloody do that in GMS because they are too damn lazy.  An $800 product, for fucksake, and when you consider that other product offer this as a standard.  And don't talk to me about DLLs and extensions, all the video DLLs are crap.  Look at all the video options in ENIGMA, and imagine when ENIGMA will be able to render video on 3D surfaces / Direct3D surfaces. :D

* ENIGMA supports many of the deprecated functions and does certain things much better and none of the folder and restrictions in GMS.  Ok they have a valid reason to use this due to security and compliance with AppStore.  BUT they could have made it optional for devs that are independant and don't require store com pliancy, but they are lazy!  Their competitors, no problem, they are flexible and let you decide.

* ENIGMA compiles and allows C++ in your projects.   ENIGMA uses an extension system, allows you to further optimize your games by removing what you don't need, making your final EXE smaller than a YYC'ed EXE.  $300 for a compiler and they don't even have their optimizations done in that regards.  It's amazing all the open source they use in GMS :D ENIGMA also is open source and it's aim was to do things better, unfortunately apparently some devs fucked off and left for whatever reason, leaving the project understaffed ! At least it's functional enough to do lots, and still being fixed !   To be fair, given observations I am skeptic that ENIGMA will fix everything need fixing in a timely manner and make it 100% GMS comaptible.....But I don't think that was their aim and I don't think they meant for things to slow down or things to get broken.

But having both products installed now I can clearly see where ENIGMA shines and what it does better.

I see lot of potential and sticking around to find out.

Now question is,what are YOU doing here?  You seem  entirely happy with YYG and GMS ! :D

I don't think ENIGMA was started by happy YYG customers :P

Are ALL ENIGMA users disgruntled YYG customers ? No.   Some might use ENIGMA as an alternative to paying for the GMS Pro version + $300 for the compiler but are otherwise very happy with GMS.

Personally I don't agree with everything in ENIGMA, and one thing I dislike is certain functions visible in plain view that are broken and not implemented yet, which might mislead people.......I already mentioned which ones (Studio extension, physics in IDE, etc.etc.etc.) but I didn't pay $800 for ENIGMA either :P

It's funny you should call me a conspiracy theorist LMAO because I was just pondering to myself on more than one occasion, of the possibility you might actually be

1) Taking the piss out.....and maybe this is all a wind-up or !  You do adore ENIGMA even helped develop it !
2) Sent by YYG
3) You are using the new CCrane Co. portable Time Travel, went into the future and saw that YYG made huge progress and ENIGMA was dead and abandoned and broken to smithereens LOL!

Humour me !

Is this for real ?  I don't like the way YYG handles things, you don't see me hanging there do you ?

You on the other hand are doing a good job defending YYG and how amazing GMS is and how ENIGMA does not live up, so what the bloody hell are you doing here ???

ENIGMA is not perfect, far from it, and yes it is broken in some places.  But it does have some advantages, you don't seem to be optimistic or convinced, so why bother.  I'm here asking tons of question about ENIGMA, reporting things that don't work and trying to learn something new and getting into C++, etc.  The minute YYG is discussed people suddenly come and defend it. 

Conspiracy ? Nah, I know for a fact some companies send plants on forum, I have proof of that and know people, and won't mention names.

One major difference you will see here, is freedom of expression.  You won't see devs censor your post, edit / delete or ban you if you don't agree with them.
The least I could say for GMC.  Some of the most helpful people here were banned for ridiculous reasons, and some people there get away with shit and left intact, but they agree with YYG and praise it.

That said, given the type of games people make on the GMC I can't blame them for loving GMS ! To be honest for most people GMS is great and by all means they should not bother with anything else.  Please refer to the topic there called "best game in the whole world."  You don't see people who make myst like games, complex 3D games, complex 2D games LARGE games, really raising the bar, brag on the GMC.  Those who really make exceptional games in GMS are rare.  Though I've seen amazing shit done in GMS the devs admitted how painful it was and how poor performance it was, and some moved on to better engines.  So this all goes back to the original topic I made about the award thing.  The other finalists GM was listed with, are advanced game engines, powerful....Sorry to say but as much as GMS has its potential for some things, it can't even COMPETE or close to compete with the other engines they are paired with.

Long life to ENIGMA, they listen to the community and they respect what people have to say, good or bad about ENIGMA.

@Robert: When you say you actually hate ENIGMA, can this be translated to:
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...I thought ENIGMA was going to blow GMS out of the water but fell flat on its arse and thus we failed .....

Or is it that you hate that it has not gathered as much support / interest than originally anticipated ?

Having tried other GM wannabe and clones, I think honestly that ENIGMA is best I used compared to the garbage out there.

I think I read on some blog or even here some say that YYG seems to be focusing more on console and mobile ports now, distancing themselves further away from window, deprecating functions without even consideration for us motherfuckers who paid for the program solely to do windows.  FUNNY that in competing products that do windows + multiple exports that they don't sacrifice windows users in the process.  Why the FUCk should YYG be different ?
and then people wonder why the hate towards YYG ?

Is it true still that GMS uses FFMPEG and each time you call a sound a new instance of FFMPEG opens ? I recall reading about people complaining of their windows tray being flooded with FFMPEG icons, and YYG uttering "oh that's windows fault not ours...."

It's funny but having used other RAD tools before, that supported audio/video etc, none exhibited that MESS.  To people who still use GMS is this still an issue?  FFMPEG for audio LOL and they have no video functions,wow, where is the logic in that !

They now decided to change how graphics are handled......THEY decided.  Apparently to increase performance lol ironicly, it had the opposite effect, and to this day even with fixes still has complaints
So what now, are they gonna tell people to throw their old tablets, phones, devices, throw away their iphones and get the iPhone5, or get the Samsung Galaxy S5 to run games at  decent rates ?  Seems every time they try to fix something the break it further.  (kinda sounds familiar (evil grin) but anyhow.).  but at least here, when that happens it gets fixed in a rather timely manner....not the case there.  Now they are moving towards console ports.
So great now those mario clones, game rips, pixel arts, stick figure games will be console compatible and to a next gen console near you.  I'm sure people will be excited to pay for that !

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Rusky on May 02, 2014, 08:45:20 am
My point (and the OP's) is that there are plenty of good reasons to use ENIGMA that are entirely unrelated to GMS, and yet the forum is still filled with YYG haters. This is not helpful for anyone- ENIGMA shouldn't be defined by that, but that's what's happening.

I'm here not because I love (or hate) YYG, or really anything to do with GMS. I'm here because I'm interested in how ENIGMA turns out- Josh has had some good ideas for its design (and some bad ones, but those discussions have been interesting too :P), and I've been following it from nearly the beginning.

My goal in this conversation is not so much to defend YYG per se, but to call you out your pointless BS that's derailing the community.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: TheExDeus on May 02, 2014, 10:00:04 am
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irrational anger towards another company whose software they want to model themselves after.
That is true, but the one who mostly rants about YYG is Darkstar2 and he isn't a developer here. Robert also often rants about YYG, but that happens less so and usually only because Darkstart started it. The rest usually couldn't care less.

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Why would I want to be associated with all this hatred.
That usually happens when we don't actually censor or try to administer topics here. You can write what you want and how you want it. That is why neither your account or your topic will get deleted because of it. While in YYG they usually stifle criticism. On the other hand then people don't see that negativity and they can't be affected by it. So the question is - Should we delete these negative posts/topics and make it look more positive? Or allow people to express their mostly irrational feelings against YYG or ENIGMA?

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How many years has it been?
I guess it started in about 2007, so about 7.

But most of your post had the same misconception as many people have here: This isn't a commercial product and it never will be. This isn't even a guided freeware software either. It started with one idea - We can make GM and we can do it for free. And in essence we did it, as we didn't compare it with GMS, but with GM6/7/8 and we did at one point or another have something as functional as GM6. But most importantly - We make ENIGMA as a hobby and as a learning experience. Josh now works at Google probably just because he thought he could write a parser when he was 16. I learned C++ from ENIGMA and now use it for computer vision, robotics, security and so on. Everything I know about graphics (2D, 3D, GL from 1 to 3, shaders, GPU and CPU optimizations) I learned from ENIGMA. That is why many of the original developers couldn't care less if anyone actually used ENIGMA. That was never the point. And I will continue working on ENIGMA even if I am the only one using it.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 02, 2014, 01:59:06 pm
My point (and the OP's) is that there are plenty of good reasons to use ENIGMA that are entirely unrelated to GMS,

I understand your point, however, keep in mind what "ENIGMA" stands for.  It IS related to GM otherwise it would not have GM in its name.  It supports GML, has the IDE look and feel, compatibility, etc, so yeah, I mean most of its users will have at least used GM wouldn't you think this is logical ? Wasn't the whole idea of ENIGMA to improve on areas GM lacked ?

You keep mentioning the haters and the forum, but have you read ENIGMA's site ? YYG and GM is referenced a lot on the main site, docs, wiki etc, so it's kinda obvious the relation to GM, there is even hate messages from the devs themslves hidden inside the source and on the site, doesn't that speak for itself?

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and yet the forum is still filled with YYG haters. This is not helpful for anyone- ENIGMA shouldn't be defined by that, but that's what's happening.

It isn't but sometimes one conversation leads to another, and when comparing features or discussing about how a certain thing is done better it's inevitable that GM discussions will add to the mix, after all, this project was made by GM users, wasn't it ? at least that is my understand of it.  I have not followed the project from the start, I joined not long ago and I tried catching up and reading up as much as I could.  But the minute I arrived here and read the site I knew right away some of the dev's ill feelings towards YYG and things done wrong in GMS, it stared me in the face and so obvious.  Everyone has a right to their opinions.  The same way YYG bashed ENIGMA and called it a piece of garbage when it was discussed on the GMC.

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I'm here not because I love (or hate) YYG, or really anything to do with GMS. I'm here because I'm interested in how ENIGMA turns out- Josh has had some good ideas for its design (and some bad ones, but those discussions have been interesting too :P),

I'm interested too......BUT since I am also a paid GMS user, it is normal for me to compare differences and cannot help but notice the pros/cons of both and discuss them.  I don't think it's fair to say it's all about YYG, if you've been following the discussions we've been talking a lot about ENIGMA, new features, bugs, bug fixes, C++, etc.   If there were not any element from GM inside ENIGMA, then obvious there would be no reason to reference GM/GMS/YYG.  When I see what won game of the month on GMS this month, it's something one would be proud to play in the days of the first consoles out ! Sorry but I've seen far better games on the C-64 produced than on GMS for the most part.  Not saying all games are bad, but lots don't really push it, so it's no wonder people love GMS....... and the few highly amazing games / projects I've seen outside the GMC, were said to be painful by its devs and performance lacking.  I think this is where ENIGMA could shine, and does shine to some extent / limit.  BTW, ENIGMA supports the use of C++ in your projects....... GMS ? not yet to my knowledge, and I don't think that is in the pipeline.
And any major revision of GM, (codename Next) is probably years down the pipeline as well.

I think YoYoGames should raise the bar.  They already implement advanced feature (shaders) etc,
they should aim higher and rehaul its 3D, have a nice 3D room editor as found on FPS Reloaded, great concept for newbies wanting to get into 3D.  Remember who GM was intended for in the first place.  Is it aimed for only kiddies and newbies ? or should it also cater to more advancing daring users as well ? If it wants to be taken seriously as a game engine, I think it should aim higher.    There is big fucking difference between trolling, bashing, hating, and making constructive criticism !

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and I've been following it from nearly the beginning.

Well when I joined here I could see a lot of arguing between developers and flame wars, trolling from ENIGMA haters and a flamer.    That didn't turn me away or stop me from using ENIGMA.  Actions speak louder than words.

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My goal in this conversation is not so much to defend YYG per se, but to call you out your pointless BS that's derailing the community.

When you say *YOU* you better be referring to a group!  There was YYG hatin' long before I joined here so you better fucking take that back !  Go see
all the references in the wiki and criticism about YYG/GM in the wiki and docs, source, they were not put there by me.

In any case I think you are trolling, and it is obvious by your forum title.... You earned it, dunno how, but I think I have a good idea.

Try to practice what you preach.  Before you "called" us out, there were good constructive discussions here about ENIGMA.

If there is something to call out YYG or GM it's not you or anybody else that will stop me or anybody !

So speaking of BS you can stop your unfair assessment of ENIGMA and its community.  If you think it is only about YYG hatin you are bloody delusional.

Now back to discussing ENIGMA and its future or lack of....... ;D

Right now I have many projects planned with ENIGMA, none involve YYG or GMS whatsoever.  My goal is to eventually make everything from scratch using ENIGMA, also planning to write an extension or script to handle extraction of external resources from single files direct to memory and other good stuff.
I'm only discussing GMS because it was already bloody discussed here !

You are not going to change my mind on YYG nor will you change my mind on GMS, all stands.

and no it's not derailing the community mate!

What is derailing the community is disagreements between devs and that is the first thing that was obvious to me when I joined.  and trouble finding devs interested in the project has fuck all to do with bloody GMS !!!!!

The flaming, trolling and newbie hating that plagued the GMC for years sure didn't stop people using GMS did it or affect YYG's sales did it ?

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 02, 2014, 02:21:59 pm
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irrational anger towards another company whose software they want to model themselves after.
That is true, but the one who mostly rants about YYG is Darkstar2 and he isn't a developer here. Robert also often rants about YYG, but that happens less so and usually only because Darkstart started it.

Not quite always true.  When I joined here and went through some messages I could clearly see there were heated discussions on YYG long before I joined.  Fact Robert mentions on many occasion what was done wrong in GM, and he is right about all of it, and GayMakerStupido reference in the wiki and source code are basically his words and were not put on the main site by me either.  Yes I made my discontent public, but there was discontent long before.  Someone who calls a product GayMakerStupido or uses the term "being sold a lemon" is not exactly a happy customer, and those are not my words.  I only started using those terms because I saw someone else use them and I thought they were appropriate.
Perhaps before some people come here and try to pin everything should go through old forum posts, some dating from way back, 2013 and before, some this year, you will see that long before I joined people were having harsh words against YYG and GM and criticism, and everything I mentioned here was at least mentioned before by people here, most by enigma devs themselves....  so when enigma devs try to now pin this on me saying "oh we have nothing to do  with this we only say this because darkstar2" that is utter bullshit. I didn't start that !  I didn't refer to GMS as a piece of turd, a lemon, a *SCAM*, yes you heard me, these words were used by none other than ENIGMA devs themselves, search the forum !!!
I was not even a member there, so how the FUCK did I start anything ?  :P

Congratulations on the YOYO police coming here to establish that they don't suck at all and that all the criticism is just a lie ! LOL.

lol as I am sifting through the forum, I am seeing lots of posts of discontent when YOYO misled people and the whole story with the  charging $300 for a compiler
and other bits and pieces, funny because I have made those same concerns when I joined here....funny that most of what I wrote are exact things said by current and ex developers here years before I joined.

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question is - Should we delete these negative posts/topics and make it look more positive? Or allow people to express their mostly irrational feelings against YYG or ENIGMA?

Irrational feelings ?  Give examples of some negative remarks against GMS that was uncalled for or irrational.   All I have done is back up my arguments in great length as opposed to 1 liner comments "this sucks" type of posts.  Every product gets remarks by its users, some positive, some negative, nobody should be in business if they can't take criticism no matter what.  What I'm beginning to see here is all of a sudden once yyg / GMS bashers trying to make themselves as saints and pinning the blame on 1 user.  I find that utterly disgusting and didn't expect that.

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But most of your post had the same misconception as many people have here: This isn't a commercial product and it never will be.

Maybe that was a mistake.  As a commercial product, staffed and all could have done well.   You can't copyright a language from what I read, so it could have used GML, but also been different and aimed more at being different than compatibility.  So it's obvious this project was created not only to offer a free GM alternative, but something doing things better than GM.......and that's exactly the impression I got when I first joined and read why I should use ENIGMA instead of GMS. 

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But most importantly - We make ENIGMA as a hobby and as a learning experience. Josh now works at Google probably just because he thought he could write a parser when he was 16. I learned C++ from ENIGMA and now use it for computer vision, robotics, security and so on. Everything I know about graphics (2D, 3D, GL from 1 to 3, shaders, GPU and CPU optimizations) I learned from ENIGMA. That is why many of the original developers couldn't care less if anyone actually used ENIGMA. That was never the point.

Well that is a good point you are making, because my interest in C++ has not been as high as it is now before I started using ENIGMA.   But somehow there are lots visible on the main site that give the impression to people that it is a finished product with all those features.  Many are still not working, broken, in other words maybe some of the material is outdated.  But what you mentioned just now those lines of text should be placed on the main site and emphasized as to not give the wrong impression to people joining.  Having said that, I used other clones before, and I say it again, when I saw ENIGMA I was skeptic, but was impressed, despite its many shortcomings, how good it compares to others. 

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And I will continue working on ENIGMA even if I am the only one using it.

lol.

Actually make that 2.  I'm using it too and have plans of my own.  Looking into getting into C++ and soon will also look at possibility of making new extensions,
it used to be a great hobby of mine too programming, but unfortunately the languages LGM and ENIGMA are coded in is outside my skill set, otherwise I'd be contributing big time as I have major interest in this.
Maybe one day.

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: TheExDeus on May 02, 2014, 05:28:14 pm
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Not quite always true.  When I joined here and went through some messages I could clearly see there were heated discussions on YYG long before I joined.  Fact Robert mentions on many occasion what was done wrong in GM, and he is right about all of it, and GayMakerStupido reference in the wiki and source code are basically his words and were not put on the main site by me either.  Yes I made my discontent public, but there was discontent long before.  Someone who calls a product GayMakerStupido or uses the term "being sold a lemon" is not exactly a happy customer, and those are not my words.  I only started using those terms because I saw someone else use them and I thought they were appropriate.
Perhaps before some people come here and try to pin everything should go through old forum posts, some dating from way back, 2013 and before, some this year, you will see that long before I joined people were having harsh words against YYG and GM and criticism, and everything I mentioned here was at least mentioned before by people here, most by enigma devs themselves....  so when enigma devs try to now pin this on me saying "oh we have nothing to do  with this we only say this because darkstar2" that is utter bullshit. I didn't start that !  I didn't refer to GMS as a piece of turd, a lemon, a *SCAM*, yes you heard me, these words were used by none other than ENIGMA devs themselves, search the forum !!!
I'm not saying Robert didn't do that before. He was the number one guy doing it until you came along. :D In the past few years people once in a while ranted about how YYG sucks. I might have contributed a post or two about that as well. But "devs" usually didn't do that. Like what do you consider a "dev" here? The only devs you probably know that are still here are me, Robert, Josh and Rusky. And me, Josh and Rusky usually don't bash YYG. At least lately (as in past 2 years).

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Give examples of some negative remarks against GMS that was uncalled for or irrational.
Most of the criticism I have read here is quite one sided or not really thought trough. Like the topic about deprecated functions or the registry functions or whatever. Again, I don't really care though. Just point out.

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So it's obvious this project was created not only to offer a free GM alternative, but something doing things better than GM
I don't think that it originally was. I can't remember clearly now (been years), but I think the original plan really was just that - "Make a free GM clone". It wasn't really about improving something. That is why we strived for compatibility above everything else. Only in about past 2 years have we diverged from that. Maybe Josh remembers better as ENIGMA was his idea.

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But somehow there are lots visible on the main site that give the impression to people that it is a finished product with all those features.
That is probably because even the website was a learning experience. :D We had a cool guy a2h who just wanted to make as cool as site as possible and to learn something while doing that. I am pretty sure he is a web programmer now (though I don't know for sure). There was even a plan for even cooler site (http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=610.0 and http://enigma-dev.org/v5test/ (now trows PHP errors, just like EDC)) but that was never finished (as always here.. :) ). It did make ENIGMA look even more like a product though. That is why we probably didn't make it live.

edit: Even if you read the about page from that test: http://enigma-dev.org/v5test/about you will find that we didn't stress ENGIMA having many new features or anything. It mostly was about "Speed" and "Platforms" (both of which GM then lacked as it was Windows only, while we always were Linux, Mac and Windows). When both of those "Advantages" disappeared we just kind of went into a slightly different direction. But the original was just about "Free, compiled and C++ based GM clone".
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Rusky on May 02, 2014, 06:26:36 pm
At the beginning Josh did yell a lot about the decompiler and performance. He talked up build mode and cross-platform a lot too, though.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 02, 2014, 07:15:45 pm
I'm not saying Robert didn't do that before. He was the number one guy doing it until you came along. :D

yeah but was he also spanked ?  ;D  I agree with all his points, he did but he also made lot of arguments to back up his rants, can't say I disagreed with any of his comments as I read them, but anyway, really, is this a trial ? LOL I mean this is bloody ridiculous, are we on trial ??!?!?!?!?!?  Like the GMC community is far from perfect, I could bring up tons of shit that happened over the years, maybe now it is more tightly moderated but it wasn't exactly perfect.

You know what I think ? I think this whole discussion is a set up to start something or get people against one another.  These things are typical on forums, person X rants about something, then you get flocks coming in from the woodwork and stirring up the pot, then they leave for a while.  Not going to work.  I guess I should fucking keep my comments to myself from now on, the YoYo police is watching !  ;D  Perhaps it would make them feel better if I started ranting against ENIGMA instead.......I could really, I'd have shiteloads to say too, but it would be rather odd for me considering what I paid for ENIGMA vs. what I paid to YYG LOL!

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In the past few years people once in a while ranted about how YYG sucks. I might have contributed a post or two about that as well. But "devs" usually didn't do that. Like what do you consider a "dev" here? The only devs you probably know that are still here are me, Robert, Josh and Rusky. And me, Josh and Rusky usually don't bash YYG. At least lately (as in past 2 years).

I haven't contributed much posts on the forums over the years there but I was very active in following up on posts.  You should see some of the violent attacks YYG got over the years on their community forum and blogs at the time, by its users, from the very start when they acquired GM, to years later, every step of the way on the decisions being made, major upgrade revision not delivering that many new features, issues left unresolved for long periods, poor support who don't answer your questions or answer with something totally irrelevant; the whole skull & pirates thing ,DRM, then until recently the removing of windows function with the arrogant reply "that's the way it is, do your own", the misleading people (and this is something few will forget) YYC compiler, etc etc etc..... YYG has tolerated FAR worse over the years on their own community from members than everything said here combined.  Some of the attacks people made there on the comments section in their old blog were personal in nature and some attacked a person directly ...... So what is said here is quite tame in comparaison ! Also lot of bashing on the GMC, I read the posts, many got removed that's why their forum appears clean and people being happy. There is a HUGE bias, if they are moderating, editing and deleting posts, and here there is none of that, so it makes it seem like the GM community is mostly composed of happy people and here, mostly YYG haters. and there is your bias, but I clearly am witness to reading those posts on the GMC before they got removed !!!!  Many of those instigators of those topics were "removed" too from the forum.
That says a lot, because some of the rants and complaints were valid and were backed up and supported by many who responded.  Funny how those posts are long gone.  but some of us happen to read them and remember.

I've also witnessed them banning a helpful contributor there for no reason, without warning and without even an explanation or reason, and that is not the first time either.  So when some people come here and use the term "irrational" bashing of YYG, I tend to disagree for the reasons stipulated herein.

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Most of the criticism I have read here is quite one sided or not really thought trough. Like the topic about deprecated functions or the registry functions or whatever. Again, I don't really care though. Just point out.

I've made some of the comments.  Now on the flip side, doesn't ENIGMA support those very same deprecated functions ? Must be a reason for that or the ENIGMA developers would have not found it reasonable to keep them.

If you pay attention and read my posts carefully you would see that I DID understand the reason for why YoYoGame had to remove some functions and restrict folder access and other shit, and that it was all about app store compliancy and security reasons.  HOWEVER, I did make it very clear and point out WHERE I think YYG's excuses were NON warranted and ridiculous, mainly the functions for video.  I mean look at other game making engines, they have that function and yet they support multi platform.  So they could not claim to have removed video because of the mobile ports now could they ? because that would be rubbish, as I've seen cut scenes and video on mobile apps/games, etc.  they simply did not want to work their arses in adapting it to multi export and so removed it. I also pointed out where they have gone wrong with their infrastructure inside GM.   Look at ENIGMA and how it's designed, should it ever support mobile exports, it won't have to deprecate windows commands like YYG did.  So again this all comes down to the many things said about YYG are justified and backed up with valid and reasonable arguments.

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I don't think that it originally was. I can't remember clearly now (been years), but I think the original plan really was just that - "Make a free GM clone". It wasn't really about improving something. That is why we strived for compatibility above everything else. Only in about past 2 years have we diverged from that. Maybe Josh remembers better as ENIGMA was his idea.

Great then, so what started with just the idea of making a free GM clone turned out into making something that exceeds GM, in some areas and where certain things are better handled.  Not such a bad thing after all.   

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That is probably because even the website was a learning experience. :D We had a cool guy a2h who just wanted to make as cool as site as possible and to learn something while doing that. I am pretty sure he is a web programmer now (though I don't know for sure). There was even a plan for even cooler site (http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=610.0 and http://enigma-dev.org/v5test/ (now trows PHP errors, just like EDC)) but that was never finished (as always here.. :) ). It did make ENIGMA look even more like a product though. That is why we probably didn't make it live.

That's the mistake and what gives the wrong impression of ENIGMA, that it is a finished product.  Then you have people using it and complaining of stuff not working and that gives ammo to YoYo Fans to go and write that ENIGMA is not all that to be like was done on the GMC.

YoYoGame can redeem themselves and might gain back some of the people who left or lost hope completely.  Let's see what they make of the new IDE, I'm guessing probably around summer, and the new GameMaker revision (codename Next) don't know if it's going to be called GMS 2 or what not.....they should raise the bar quite high because I remember people were quite disappointed with previous upgrades and made it very clear.  If they really listen and take criticism, they could play it to their advantage.

Now I would be curious for the non MASTER COLLECTION users like myself, who own the GMS Pro, well I have the GMS Pro + HTMl5, how many have paid the $300 for the YYC ?   They took quite a lot of heat on their forum when this happened, also some posts mysteriously are gone now (how convenient !) but I was there and read them.  Is it reasonable for a Windows only user who exports only to windows, to spend $300 for a YYC?  Their reasoning for charging $300 is because it includes exports for YYC Windows YYC Android YYC IOS.    How the HELL is that valid for a GMS Pro user who don't have these exports and only want to use windows ? Why the fuck should we cough up the price for 3 exports when we use 1 !  SO yeah, this is only ONE example of many bad decisions they made.  And I won't name any names, but some angry members who have left the community openly brag about using pirated versions of GMS and MASTER, so what they were trying to prevent was actually the opposite.  Using a pirated version was never in my plans and that's when I found ENIGMA.  Some people are developing with a pirated version and releasing shit, and that is FACT.  This is something I would never personally do.  The right thing to do was to split the YYC compiler depending on your set up.  Windows only export, you pay for YYC Windows.  Android export, you pay for windows + android and so forth.  But they are known for being lazy so it was easier to just charge one price.  I feel that $300 is a rip-off as do many. and the way they figured the $300 is by 3 exports (99/99/99, windows/android/IOS....) So quite a blow to the windows only user who would be paying the bundle price for 2 other exports they don't have !!!!
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Rusky on May 02, 2014, 07:45:11 pm
Regardless of literally everything you just said, this community has a problem. You are part of it. No excuses.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on May 02, 2014, 09:48:28 pm
Harri did an awesome job summing up, I learned a lot from working on ENIGMA too. But it just led me to realize how badly designed GM is compared to other engines, so I just ended up hating it.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 02, 2014, 11:04:07 pm
Harri did an awesome job summing up, I learned a lot from working on ENIGMA too. But it just led me to realize how badly designed GM is compared to other engines, so I just ended up hating it.

It's badly designed compared to other engines, but you have to admit it's probably the best one to use for beginners / newbies and the easiest for someone who wants to dabble with easy to learn scripting.  Otherwise you have shit like drag & click to build Game builder type engines with prefabs and everything set just click....  I may think it does not deserve an award for "best game engine" on a global perspective, but if judged solely on level of difficulty, I'd give it an award on that alone. Learning curve, getting around the IDE, the concept of building games with objects, events, D&D, etc. That is what Mark Overmars meant for GM to be, accessible to everyone who wants to make games without all the complication of code and a steep learning curve.

Eventually i'm sure people as they gain more interest in advanced stuff, would want to move to the next level. 
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 02, 2014, 11:30:34 pm
Regardless of literally everything you just said, this community has a problem. You are part of it. No excuses.

Right, ok. and because certain aspects of GMS suck I'm also part of that too. So what's your view of a community, who the fuck made you forum police ?
Are you an admin ? moderator ? Show me the motherfucking rules, terms of service, whatever.....are you to decide what gets discussed here or what not ? You've made some negative rants about GM too and some quite recently, and funny but even though you are being an ass, I agreed :D

Or are you trying to make this forum into another GMC?   On forums people discuss good or bad, positive and negative.   If I am part of a "problem" then where do you fit in? Are you trying to make things better, other than policing the community with your rubbish ?  Again, don't you see the irony, you got a forum badge, and to be honest fits you perfectly :P so with a "troll" badge you go around spewing rubbish and deciding what's good and what not for this community.  You think you are making things better with your highly inflammatory, and provocative remarks ?  You think I will back down and change my mind ? I WON'T, because, remember who's the troll.......   My comments were genuine and everything I said about my discontent with said company and software was valid, and backed up already.

The moment someone makes a remark that is negative on a forum it is perceived a "problem"?

You would be best fit as an admin / moderator on the GMC.  IS that what you want this place to be ?

Let's continue with ENIGMA discussions. I don't purposely invoke GMS into discussions it just comes into context.  If we are talking about a specific feature in ENIGMA and topics lead to one thing and I mention it, "oh BTW, that is poorly done in GMS, and hate it......".that is NOT a bad thing.....It's a discussion, so long as it's backed up with arguments and facts. The same way you gave arguments as to why you thought GM made crappy games and went on ranting about it.

It's up to whoever is running this place to decide.  If it is deemed inappropriate to discuss YYG or GMS here then so be it, say the word i'll follow it.

But i'm not going to sit here and listen to some resident TROLL and his YYG shilling flame mongering.
I say what I say, brutally honest and to the point, but I mean it.
So be it.  Now that I became aware of it, I guess I should just not take anything you say to have any value , since you probably are just stirring the pot.

BTW, I joined in January 2014, but looking back to the forum Q4 2013, basically it was mostly flaming, arguing, bitching, developers who disagree with one another, people accusing one another, etc.  So what's the bigger problem for this community ? me talking against GM ( not that I'm the only one ) or the tirade amongst developers who can't agree on things and endless arguments.....which do you think is more harmful.  When I joined this community there already WAS a problem underway, and a big one. 

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 02, 2014, 11:47:57 pm
Oh yeah Russel, let me quote you on something you said quite recently

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GM has crappy games because it's easy to use... and harder than necessary to make good games with. This is the limitation that matters. There are new tools (and alternate conceptions of existing ones) that other game engines have or could have that GM does not, that make it easier to focus on the game design and polish and spend less time on bookwork. GM is actually relatively low-level as far as describing game behavior goes.

LOL!   So I'm assuming your alleged employment with YYG started after April 4th.  (obvious sarcasm!)

BTW do you even have GMS installed on your system ? do you even use it ?  So it must be so amazing that you went ahead and started DejaVu right ? 



Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on May 03, 2014, 12:09:29 am
I am not talking about that, I am talking about GM being retarded unnecessarily, my main complaint is graphics and the ridiculous *.d3d mesh format. And I don't want to hear arguments like, "well write your own OBJ loader dumbass", NO! When you pay 800$ for a game engine, it should at least be able to handle the most basic mesh format like every other game engine offers you even in their free version.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 03, 2014, 12:22:33 am
I am not talking about that, I am talking about GM being retarded unnecessarily, my main complaint is graphics and the ridiculous *.d3d mesh format. And I don't want to hear arguments like, "well write your own OBJ loader dumbass", NO! When you pay 800$ for a game engine, it should at least be able to handle the most basic mesh format like every other game engine offers you even in their free version.

There you go !!!  This is what I've been saying all along and complaining about, their attitude !  You are basically saying exactly what i've been saying, though more technically.   The "NO!!! do your own shit because we won't do it for you" is one of my main gripes about YYG, this is fact, I can swear on anything that they did say that.  kinda defeats the whole purpose of GM if they go around telling people, mostly beginner level to go fuck themselves and make their own feature because they won't do it. lol.
Even worse, REMOVING a feature that was used by people with some lame excuses and then telling people to just do without or make their own.
What is so irrational in saying that ?   If it were FREE they might earn the right to say that, there again maybe not if you have ethics, but otherwise a paying software that had a feature that got removed for no reason and necessarily,  people have a right  to be pissed....even more those who pay $800!  an $800 software that does not have the basic functionality that other competitor product have in their standard versions..........So by their definition they should remove physics, shaders, audio, and ask people to do their own !   lol.    But someone once told me, never argue with Scottish ! :D   I reckon Mark Overmars would never have been as rude with his customers,
telling paying and loyal customers a NO!!! or to take it or leave it, or live with it that's how we do it now, so go do your own we won't do it for you type......that's plain rude. :D

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: TheExDeus on May 03, 2014, 06:51:29 am
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So what's your view of a community, who the fuck made you forum police ?
I think his point is that you write 16 paragraphs per post with literally ranting. Look how we post. Often just one line. I can assure you Rusky hasn't anything to do with YYG and he just pointed out how this community really is "negative". I see it too, I just don't really care. I guess Rusky doesn't care either. So read what you posted in this topic and say to yourself - "Isn't Rusky at least partly right?". You put yourself as "victim" even though your were mentioned offhand as an example. You shouldn't take any of that personally, but you really did illustrate the point he was trying to make.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on May 03, 2014, 01:19:32 pm
Yeah but Harri, I can give credit where credit is due, one of which being I think EA releases made Studio much less buggy, it was a good improvement. I also liked the addition of regular game pads like the Xbox 360 and PS3 controller, they were really good additions and the functions were awesome. But I can't say the same about their other half-assed and rushed implementations like Box2D, and the audio which they kept having to change and deprecate new functions. They already have 10 new audio_* functions that they created that already deprecated, that shows they aren't taking the time they need to really do a good job. So I wouldn't say anybody is being negative, I think I am fairly balanced on the issue.

Also, Darkstar makes 10 posts everytime he posts, lol, that's not necessarily relevant to this at all.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 03, 2014, 02:49:01 pm
Is this the trial of Robert & Darkstar2 ?  Why the bloody hell do any of us have to justify ourselves,
this is getting ridiculous, why am I even bothering !

LOL.  Fuck me!  My bad for feeding trolls.

So how is it better for a community with trolls and fanboys going around dissecting negative or any posts from other members.  For fucksake, I didn't know this was a GM fans club ! It isn't. ;)

really do a good job. So I wouldn't say anybody is being negative, I think I am fairly balanced on the issue.

Exactly, I don't think most of what people say here about YYG/GM/GMS is unfair, I think facts speak for themselves. 

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Also, Darkstar makes 10 posts everytime he posts, lol, that's not necessarily relevant to this at all.

The long posts I feel are necessary for explaining into detail to avoid any misinterpretation.  If I were to say "GMS sucks my hairy balls" that's 1 line, is that better or is it better to go into details as to why I feel a certain way ? 

I will try to keep it short.  The longest reply / post I ever wrote on a forum was 35 pages full, and I'm not kidding ! :D  But in a very specific case this was to my advantage in the end.

SO yeah I will do my best to shorten the post unless I feel I have no choice otherwise in some specific case.

As far as my opinions on GM/YYG, they won't change, so whenever I have something negative to say I will bloody say it, there will always be fanboys and YYG defenders, fine by me.

I am a PAID user so I think I can rant and be negative if I want to, when it is warranted, considering the features I wanted were present at the time I spent my money on said software and were later removed for completely retarded reasons.

Moving along now.

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: TheExDeus on May 03, 2014, 05:17:57 pm
Quote
Is this the trial of Robert & Darkstar2 ?  Why the bloody hell do any of us have to justify ourselves,
this is getting ridiculous, why am I even bothering !
I guess the fact you think you are on "trial" is kind of what Rusky means. You are just so "hot blooded" for no reason at all that it may seem for others you are negative. Like seriously read last 5 of your posts in this topic. Do you really think that the responses are proportional? It's like if someone said he didn't like color blue, which for sake of example you do like, and you start yelling on him how you are on trial and how he is trolling. :D
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 03, 2014, 05:39:39 pm
He is, his goal is to stir shit up and he succeeded and it was my mistake to get into it :D

He didn't earn his title for nothing. :)

He took the personal attack route, and I will defend myself to that.
I am always open to discussing hot sometimes controversial topics
even if they are negative, who's he to decide what gets said around here.
:P, I will say what I have to say about GM /YYG, if it is a problem for the community, then they should go dig posts from 2013 and before.
or know what to do :D

1) Set rules
2) Moderate and police like they do on GMC.

But it is obvious that I am not here to fight about GayMaker studio,
but just so happen to express my gripes when there is context into the discussion.  That's all.

This forum was way negative and inflammatory long before I joined. PROOF is there. devs can't seem to get along and have big differences in what needs to be done and how and when, THAT, is the biggest problem derailing enigma, not my negative remarks on GMS lol.

You can continue feeding the trolls like I did :D But I don't think this is productive ,why don't we go back to discussing ENIGMA stuff shall we ??? Maybe I should not respond to anymore of this rubbish but if I see some personal attacks and flames I WILL defend myself make no mistake.

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: time-killer-games on May 03, 2014, 10:26:59 pm
(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121120001533/random-ness/images/5/50/Gaston_Motivater.png)
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: TheExDeus on May 04, 2014, 02:17:38 am
Quote
He took the personal attack route, and I will defend myself to that.
And when did he do that? His only quote that is actually in any way related to you is this:
Quote
My goal in this conversation is not so much to defend YYG per se, but to call you out your pointless BS that's derailing the community.
And that is his opinion and he is entitled to it. In the posts after that you actually kind of proved his point. So in essence you seem like a troll, not him. So no, he is not a troll and there was no "personal attack". He just stated an opinion you partly proved. You took it WAAAYYY to personal or even seriously.

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This forum was way negative and inflammatory long before I joined. PROOF is there. devs can't seem to get along and have big differences in what needs to be done and how and when, THAT, is the biggest problem derailing enigma, not my negative remarks on GMS lol.
I personally don't really know what you mean. Forums were and still are unmoderated, so there were many for fun posts like in the "nonsense" section. But no one ever took anything of that seriously. Like putting a word "fuck" as an error in ENIGMA isn't meant to be "negative", it's just how hobby programmers usually do it.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on May 04, 2014, 05:05:15 am
Quote from: TheExDeus
It's like if someone said he didn't like color blue, which for sake of example you do like, and you start yelling on him how you are on trial and how he is trolling.
Blue is by far the most popular color, it makes people relaxed and calm.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
http://channels.isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/the-most-popular-color-in-the-157991
https://www.google.com/#q=most+popular+color
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Benxamix2 on May 04, 2014, 08:45:39 am
Woah, what a long thread. Couldn't read everything wrote by Darkstar, tl.

As for me, I'm using ENIGMA for the following reasons.



(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52212606/imagenes/fotos/doritos.jpg)

I love Doritos, btw.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Rusky on May 04, 2014, 09:51:57 am
Even the blue color of these forums seems incapable of making some people relaxed or calm... :P
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: onpon on May 04, 2014, 10:01:10 am
I'm only interested in ENIGMA because it's free/libre software, not dependent on any proprietary software, and decent quality. The reason I would use ENIGMA instead of other game engines that fit that description (like mine) is LateralGM, mainly the room editor (Game Editor is the only other free/libre game engine I'm aware of with such an editor, and Game Editor's collision detection system is useless for anything non-trivial).

My interest in ENIGMA has nothing to do with some sort of hatred of Game Maker or YYG. There are things I don't like about Game Maker, but they apply to ENIGMA just as much. Game Maker just isn't an option since it's proprietary.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 04, 2014, 11:44:31 am
I'm only interested in ENIGMA because it's free/libre software, not dependent on any proprietary software

Yes the FREE part is a good reason, although some people would not mind paying $ for decent software.  Also GameMakerStudio has more opensource in it than people think :D

another reason people might use ENIGMA, or more precisely LGM (since LGM is the GUI (IDE). ) is that it looks like using GM, it has much the look and feel that people got used to with GM.

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fit that description (like mine) is LateralGM, mainly the room editor (Game Editor is the only other free/libre game engine I'm aware of with such an editor, and Game Editor's collision detection system is useless for

In terms of ROOM EDITOR you will notice GMS' is better, in the sense that when you are clicking on an instance ID in the list you KNOW where in the room it points to, as it draws an outline over the instance.  You also can scale, rotate, etc, you can't do that yet in LGM.

Also in LGM you can manually disable uneeded features/extensions, for less overhead and much smaller file sizes, which
in my opinion is an important optimization that GMS should have been built on.  This is one great feature of ENIGMA/LGM you will appreciate as you use it.

Quote
My interest in ENIGMA has nothing to do with some sort of hatred of Game Maker or YYG. There are things I don't like about Game Maker, but they apply to ENIGMA just as much. Game Maker just isn't an option since it's proprietary.

Keep in mind ENIGMA is far from perfect, it is not a complete replacement of GMS or completely finished product.  I too learned that I used it :D

Also there are certain things you have to do differently and learn new ways.  Certain things you will have to learn code to do, such as physics (for now), etc.  and if you are into C++, this is a great tool to get started.

I'm doing that just now and gaining a lot of interest in it.  Can even use C++ inside your projects.  I tried it and it works. :D

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: onpon on May 04, 2014, 02:12:14 pm
Yes the FREE part is a good reason, although some people would not mind paying $ for decent software.

When I said "free", I meant "libre", not "gratis". "Free/libre" is a clarification of this; it doesn't mean "gratis and libre". I couldn't care less how much a developer is charging for copies of a free/libre program.

Also GameMakerStudio has more opensource in it than people think :D

I don't know or care how much permissively-licensed code YoYo Games has made proprietary and added into Game Maker. Game Maker is still proprietary.

In terms of ROOM EDITOR you will notice GMS' is better, in the sense that when you are clicking on an instance ID in the list you KNOW where in the room it points to, as it draws an outline over the instance.  You also can scale, rotate, etc, you can't do that yet in LGM.

Irrelevant. GameMaker: Studio is proprietary. ENIGMA is free/libre. For me, being proprietary doesn't just make something a less desirable alternative. It completely disqualifies it.

By the way, I'm not new to ENIGMA. I've been following it for years, albeit not very closely, and I finally went and made a game with ENIGMA (a short beat 'em up) last December; other than bugs and the overall alpha state of ENIGMA making it a bumpy ride, it was very familiar and an easy transition from Game Maker.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 04, 2014, 02:15:54 pm
Understood.

I am curious to know, does your ENIGMA made game still work now if you compile  your source with the latest ENIGMA/LGM builds ?

I am aware that certain things that may have worked before got broken or changed between builds.

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: time-killer-games on May 04, 2014, 03:32:24 pm
I must confess I too am probably a chunk of the problem. But I'm sure everyone knew that. I do realize that bashing YYG and GMS is not going to contribute any good first impressions and will probably turn a good few people off. Likewise I'll be toning it down a bit, anything good I can contribute to the exposure of ENIGMA and it's comnunity, the more, the better.

Though I also confess we need multiple stable versions uploaded somewhere because relying on only the latest build is hazardous as when I get my game working, it gets broken after an update, and if I didn't backup or keep track of a version of ENIGMA that worked best, with no release notes / older version downloads like what GMS has, I can get screwed pretty easy by just 1 destructive, untested update, which such crappy updates I've encountered many times with Enigma, not very convenient.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: onpon on May 04, 2014, 03:50:16 pm
I am curious to know, does your ENIGMA made game still work now if you compile  your source with the latest ENIGMA/LGM builds ?

I am aware that certain things that may have worked before got broken or changed between builds.

I don't know, it's a small game of little importance so I haven't checked. But I didn't use anything particularly exotic, so it wouldn't surprise me if it does.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on May 05, 2014, 07:58:12 am
Quote from: TKG
Though I also confess we need multiple stable versions uploaded somewhere because relying on only the latest build is hazardous as when I get my game working, it gets broken after an update, and if I didn't backup or keep track of a version of ENIGMA that worked best, with no release notes / older version downloads like what GMS has, I can get screwed pretty easy by just 1 destructive, untested update, which such crappy updates I've encountered many times with Enigma, not very convenient.
All right, point taken, but with git revision software you can actually back up to the older version of master if you know what you're doing (I don't know how to do it)

Anyway, I'll compromise, from now on I will leave the last Portable ZIP still on the install page, maybe I'll start version numbering it as well.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: onpon on May 05, 2014, 08:34:19 am
Assigning version numbers to revisions that are known to not be totally broken periodically and having links to them would certainly be helpful. It doesn't even need to be stable; just having easy access to previous versions that are known to work with game X would make it easier to both backtrack when new ENIGMA bugs cause problems, and tell people how to compile.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: time-killer-games on May 06, 2014, 07:52:17 am
@ Robert - that'd be great, thanks, drop box is terrible for free space however, if you run out there's always Google drive. :) I don't think the portable zip is the only thing this should apply to, the source code and Linux version needs this too. Correct me if I'm wrong, git might have a feature like this for all I know so you might not need to do multiple version downloads for the source.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Rusky on May 06, 2014, 08:12:49 am
GitHub has a "releases" feature where if you tag a commit, it will automatically provide a download of the source, and you can upload binary packages as well. That would probably be the easiest solution.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on May 06, 2014, 11:26:36 pm
Quote from: TKG
Correct me if I'm wrong, git might have a feature like this for all I know so you might not need to do multiple version downloads for the source.
It does, I already said that, you use git reset, the only problem is I only back up the plugin and LGM to major release versions and not minor ones.
http://enigma-dev.org/docs/Wiki/LateralGM:_Revisions

Anyway, Linux still has no install packages, it's still all manual and not automated, so it's not a concern atm.

(http://i.imgur.com/B3Qovyc.png)
Also, the revisions of the Portable ZIP already exist.
https://www.dropbox.com/help/11/en

Here are the last 3 consecutive releases from newest to oldest:
https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/ENIGMA%20Portable.exe?sjid=258&_subject_uid=245458375&w=AADC1TEZBy1O1TeL1ykmbqBt2dV6woEaL4M0j9L93Qn3Eg
https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/ENIGMA%20Portable.exe?sjid=258&_subject_uid=245458375&w=AADC1TEZBy1O1TeL1ykmbqBt2dV6woEaL4M0j9L93Qn3Eg
https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/ENIGMA%20Portable.exe?sjid=254&_subject_uid=245458375&w=AADC1TEZBy1O1TeL1ykmbqBt2dV6woEaL4M0j9L93Qn3Eg
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: TheExDeus on May 07, 2014, 01:51:11 pm
The Dropbox ones are going to hold only for 30 days. Unless you paid for the packrat thing.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Benxamix2 on May 07, 2014, 04:13:42 pm
Tried your dropbox links, and this showed up.

Quote
Error (403)
It seems you don't belong here! You should probably sign in. Check out our Help Center and forums for help, or head back to home.

Only someone with permissions can retrieve the old versions. Or so it seems.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: time-killer-games on May 07, 2014, 04:17:06 pm
Three words...

GOOGLE DRIVE

...so much more free space.Just sayin'.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Benxamix2 on May 07, 2014, 04:31:02 pm
Three words...

GOOGLE DRIVE

But I'm only seeing two!
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: time-killer-games on May 07, 2014, 04:38:08 pm
Don't take it from me, what about this guy:

(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120112010843/disney/images/8/81/Phil_BBS.png)

(http://a2.img.mobypicture.com/86897ae26692c16f11f365622f35217c_view.jpg)
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Darkstar2 on May 07, 2014, 05:59:25 pm
Quote from: time-killer-games link=topic=1919.msg18713#msg18713
date=1399497426
Three words...

GOOGLE DRIVE

But I'm only seeing two!

LOL!

Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Benxamix2 on May 07, 2014, 06:06:20 pm
@tkg

I was just pulling a manzai comedy :V
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: time-killer-games on May 07, 2014, 07:55:02 pm
I had a feeling about that.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on May 07, 2014, 07:58:32 pm
I don't feel like downloading and reuploading the old versions it'll take me like several hours, unless someone really really REALLY needs one of the old versions. TKG, does Google drive let the people you share files with download the older versions? I'd like a file sharing host that just automatically lets people download the old versions.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Rusky on May 07, 2014, 08:01:02 pm
Why would you use google drive if you can use github?
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: time-killer-games on May 07, 2014, 08:02:03 pm
@Robert i'm not sure what you mean. Either I'm stupid or it was something I missed. You can upload and share the file download. I'm not sure what else it's supposed to do.

@Rusky the majority of humanity that could potentially consider enigma will be turned of by Git, I'm not just speaking for myself, but for the benefit of ENIGMA. I don't know anyone who knows how to crap around with git other than fully experienced software programmers. If enigma is supposed to target beginners at all or people who don't want to fart around with years of coding like GM does then git simply is just not an option at all.

One thing I agree with Jimmy_D on is the whole scope of git and this repository shit will mean the end of enigma (just one of many potential reasons).The only people who should mess with git are enigma's devs, not it's game development users. That's an entirely different audience.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Rusky on May 07, 2014, 08:11:51 pm
You misunderstand me. I said GitHub, not git. You can upload binaries to be associated with tags, and they show up alongside the source zip/tar.gz on a page like this one: https://github.com/enigma-dev/enigma-dev/releases/tag/update-stable

It's free, it's versioned, it's got the same permission set up as the repository already, it's specifically for uploading binaries. Why would you go anywhere else?
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on May 07, 2014, 08:13:28 pm
Quote from: TKG
@Robert i'm not sure what you mean. Either I'm stupid or it was something I missed. You can upload and share the file download. I'm not sure what else it's supposed to do.
Let's say I upload a file version A, B, and C. The current version is C, but a user wants to download A, can Google drive allow them to select the version of the file, or do I have to send them a special link, or is it just simply not possible with Google drive like how Dropbox won't let you guys do it either?

Quote from: TKG
@Rusky the majority of humanity that could potentially consider enigma will be turned of by Git, I'm not just speaking for myself, but for the benefit of ENIGMA. I don't know anyone who know how to crap around with got other than fully experienced software developers. If enigma is supposed to target beginners at all or people who don't want to fart around with years of coding like GM does then git simply is just not an option at all.
It's insanely easy though, and you might want to think about all the Linux users that love utilizing their terminal. In fact, git revision software and package managers are the reason why software on Linux does not bloat your operating system because of the reuse of binaries and libraries. It also makes it insanely quick for a developer to do things, it's also possible for you to make a script and put the backup code in there and simply run the script. Although I use Windows because of Linux having shitty drivers for everything, I prefer to use Linux for software development and programming. Linux is a programmers paradise.

Also, GitHub is the most popular and basically the best revision software, it is a million times better than SVN, if we were still on Sourceforge you can guarantee people would be a lot more pissed off.

Quote from: TKG
One thing I agree with Jimmy_D on is the whole scope of git and this repository shit will mean the end of enigma (just one of many potential reasons).The only people who should mess with got are enigma's devas, not it's game development users. That's an entirely different audience.
No that couldn't be further from the truth, git was created by Linus Torvalds, the Linux Kernel is hosted on GitHub.
https://github.com/torvalds
https://github.com/torvalds/linux

YoYoGames also uses GitHub.

Facebook uses GitHub.
https://github.com/facebook

Google uses GitHub.
https://github.com/google
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: time-killer-games on May 07, 2014, 08:21:09 pm
Okay Rusky that explains what I needed to know, thanks. I didn't know github could be used to distribute binaries that is new news to me scratch everything I said about Google drive. I'm scratching my head attempting to realize why I didn't already know this. Talk about hidden in plain sight. XD

Edit my damn spell checker is fucking up my posts.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: edsquare on June 01, 2014, 12:46:32 pm
Quote from: TKG
@Robert i'm not sure what you mean. Either I'm stupid or it was something I missed. You can upload and share the file download. I'm not sure what else it's supposed to do.
Let's say I upload a file version A, B, and C. The current version is C, but a user wants to download A, can Google drive allow them to select the version of the file, or do I have to send them a special link, or is it just simply not possible with Google drive like how Dropbox won't let you guys do it either?

As long as the files have distinctive names as : ENIGMA v1, v2 v3, etc.

Quote from: TKG
@Rusky the majority of humanity that could potentially consider enigma will be turned of by Git, I'm not just speaking for myself, but for the benefit of ENIGMA. I don't know anyone who know how to crap around with got other than fully experienced software developers. If enigma is supposed to target beginners at all or people who don't want to fart around with years of coding like GM does then git simply is just not an option at all.
It's insanely easy though, and you might want to think about all the Linux users that love utilizing their terminal. In fact, git revision software and package managers are the reason why software on Linux does not bloat your operating system because of the reuse of binaries and libraries. It also makes it insanely quick for a developer to do things, it's also possible for you to make a script and put the backup code in there and simply run the script. Although I use Windows because of Linux having shitty drivers for everything, I prefer to use Linux for software development and programming. Linux is a programmers paradise.

I have to disagree:

1.- The kind of Linux user that loves using the terminal is not (in general terms), the kind who would be interested in ENIGMA (Other than as a developer), they would develop their games using vim and svn because "that's what real programers use!"

2.- At the moment the vast majority of Linux users are using: Ubuntu/LinuxMint or something as easy to use, because it solves most of your drivers problems for you and also because of launchpad, the easy way to get stuff not in official repositories without compiling it! just check http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity and the number of books dedicated to that segment and you'll realize I'm right.

3.- For this reason you may want to think about getting on launchpad (hint, hint, wink, wink)

4.- Gues what Linux distro I use!

Also, GitHub is the most popular and basically the best revision software, it is a million times better than SVN, if we were still on Sourceforge you can guarantee people would be a lot more pissed off.

git is the shit compared to anyother revision software true but... Sourceforge allows you to use more than one host for your code, also as I mention in another place sourceforge may help luring more developers to the cause.

Quote from: TKG
One thing I agree with Jimmy_D on is the whole scope of git and this repository shit will mean the end of enigma (just one of many potential reasons).The only people who should mess with got are enigma's devas, not it's game development users. That's an entirely different audience.
No that couldn't be further from the truth, git was created by Linus Torvalds, the Linux Kernel is hosted on GitHub.
https://github.com/torvalds
https://github.com/torvalds/linux

YoYoGames also uses GitHub.

Facebook uses GitHub.
https://github.com/facebook

Google uses GitHub.
https://github.com/google

That is an argument from popularity and any way it kind of proves TKG's point.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: Goombert on June 01, 2014, 12:49:52 pm
Ok, I see your points, and they are very good. Can't say I disagree, but I don't have time to maintain hosting of ENIGMA on a bazillion websites, like other projects, there should be other people helping out, but nobody ever does.
Title: Re: The choice was obvious, and it wasn't Enigma
Post by: edsquare on June 01, 2014, 12:58:35 pm
Ok, I see your points, and they are very good. Can't say I disagree, but I don't have time to maintain hosting of ENIGMA on a bazillion websites, like other projects, there should be other people helping out, but nobody ever does.

I have some time and would love to help.

If it were easy to build a .deb I would already have done it, saddly it's not.

ATM I'm teaching myself C++ to see if I can help with Radial/NaturalGM (WTF?)