ENIGMA Forums

General fluff => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Josh @ Dreamland on December 18, 2013, 05:06:09 AM

Title: I'm out
Post by: Josh @ Dreamland on December 18, 2013, 05:06:09 AM
I just graduated college. This means that for the first time in ages, I'm about to have some free time. However, I have decided I won't be doing that. Since my return, all I have gotten out of this community, primarily over IRC, is constant nagging about all the shit everyone needs from me. This includes updates to a bot that was broken eight months ago, the remaining EDC renovations Ism and I started months ago, which no one has touched since, the build system Fuckwit decided to obliterate, and the graphics system Robert started blenderizing. And after endless little tasks, I told them to back off—specifically, to shut up and leave me the fuck alone. What happened instead was a continuation of the relentless onslaught of me being called worthless, and frankly, I'm fed up.

So rather than devote my newly discovered free time to this project, I'm going to invest it in my more interesting ideas. I sort of miss the feeling of freedom I had when I was younger, to work on what I please. Knowing exactly what needs done to a system of this size deprives you of that.

TL;DR: A lack of motivation on all fronts coupled with the endless nagging of people I'm frankly sick of hearing from, topped off with Ism's informal resignation, has led me to present my own informal resignation.

I'll come back when either Ism and forthevin are back around, or I receive a formal letter of "eating shit" from Fuckwit. This will be after he realizes that a compiler isn't just a parser.

Seeing as I've left for a few solid months in the past without too much repercussion, you probably won't miss me very quickly. Just don't expect a sudden hike in bug fixes.

Ciao for now.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: cheeseboy on December 18, 2013, 05:41:47 AM
Good riddance. You have not done anything in 2+ years so a formal resignation isn't needed. You think you're indispensable but you aren't. When you want to get off your high horse and cooperate with the other developers feel free to comeback.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: Goombert on December 18, 2013, 05:48:47 AM
I second what cheeseboy has said as well. If anyone is on a high horse Josh, it's you. Complain all you want about nobody understanding the parser, and there are two reasons for that.

1) It is an obfuscated mess, and you can not deny that. And on top of that you do nonsensical things all the time, such as naming the windows executable "stupidity-buffer" and let's not forget of course entire ASCII turds dedicated to debug output.
2) If anybody asks you a question, you immediately start condescending them and calling them retarded. The only dumb question is the one you don't ask.

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updates to a bot that was broken eight months ago,
It was a 6 line bug fix, it is not my fault you can't build a simple Java Applet. For which DarkAce was complaining about for eight months as well.
https://github.com/enigma-dev/EnigmaBot/pull/2

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This will be after he realizes that a compiler isn't just a parser.
Your parser is nothing more than a GCC front-end.

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Just don't expect a sudden hike in bug fixes.
Who are you referring to? Nobody would expect that from anyone except myself of course.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: Sslaxx on December 18, 2013, 08:06:17 AM
Do you not think the in-fighting that's currently plaguing ENIGMA is hurting it?
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: DaSpirit on December 18, 2013, 10:16:12 AM
I'll miss you... :(
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: TheExDeus on December 18, 2013, 01:48:43 PM
I don't think asking Josh for anything than the parser stuff was really needed. We could of find people to do web stuff separately. But no one here would be able to write and maintain the parser even if it was the best documented piece of software in existence. So seeing Josh giving up on ENIGMA means we won't get the new parser which would help with a lot of problems we were having. Taking into account the fact Josh was the only one nearly qualified to make such a thing (as he has written several in the past few years) seems like a grim thing for ENIGMA. I am sure people like Robert will try to write it and fail spectacularly. Then when the first version will be done a year later it will be as good as the one ENIGMA had in 2008. People seem to overestimate the things he has written for ENIGMA. I'd say 90% of the most important parts. What Robert does is creates a bazillion unfinished and unnecessary "graphics systems" and then deletes them a month later when he realizes nobody needs freaking Ogre or Irrlich or whatever as a separate system. The same actually with other systems as well. Most of the code is buggy and breaks almost constantly. The current version actually doesn't run half the EDC games. So while Robert is eager, he is inexperienced, especially with as big of software as ENIGMA. And the only two persons who were was Ism and Josh.

So if you Josh decide to remake something similar to ENIGMA in the future, I am happy to help.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: polygone on December 18, 2013, 02:08:07 PM
lol Josh why do you care so much what cheeseboy thinks and says? ENIGMA has come all this way and then you give up at the final hurdle or have you just lost hope in it altogether?
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: Goombert on December 18, 2013, 03:01:23 PM
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I don't think asking Josh for anything than the parser stuff was really needed.
So pretty much asking him for anything is unnecessary. Josh certainly hasn't been bearing the majority of the workload if any at all for a year now. Far-be-it from him to finish a few simple tasks.

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piece of software in existence.
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I am sure people like Robert will try to write it and fail spectacularly.
For one we don't even need the damn thing, clang does everything we would want it to, and we wouldn't be so far behind if so much of the effort wasn't wasted.

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Then when the first version will be done a year later it will be as good as the one ENIGMA had in 2008.
The one we have now isn't better than the one Game Maker had in 2005.

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nobody needs freaking Ogre or Irrlich or whatever as a separate system.
Nobody needs to freaking reinvent the wheel either when a proper media abstraction layer can do such awesome things as allowing driver swapping at runtime.

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The current version actually doesn't run half the EDC games.
You can blame that on Josh too because I haven't been able to update any of the examples on the EDC, because him and Ism decided to show up out of the blue and wreck the thing and leave it broken for months.

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he is inexperienced
Not as far as graphics programming goes, if it wasn't for me we wouldn't have Direct3D. And without that people with shitty graphics cards like polygonz would not be able to use surfaces, but now polygone can use Direct3D 9 and surfaces and with better performance than the other graphics systems. I also fixed a bunch of the flags and the Mario game peaks at 360fps with Direct3D where as OpenGL 3 peaks at 300. I am clearly not the inexperienced one here or we'd still have OpenGL 1 software rendering and call lists where any half decent model takes up 500 mb's of ram.

Not to mention I'm not the one that suggested using 4 floats for representing color. All you damn OpenGL/Linux fanatics, and yes I am going to generalize here, tend to make really crazy assumptions.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: TheExDeus on December 18, 2013, 03:13:43 PM
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For one we don't even need the damn thing, clang does everything we would want it to, and we wouldn't be so far behind if so much of the effort wasn't wasted.
Clang is the compiler. I am referring to the parser. Clang cannot compile GML. It can compile C++. So you need GML->C++ anyway. And that is the problem I am referring too. All the bugs are in that step, not in the compiler step.

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The one we have now isn't better than the one Game Maker had in 2005.
GM didn't have anything like that until GM:S. Now it does have some kind of GML->C++.

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Nobody needs to freaking reinvent the wheel either when a proper media abstraction layer can do such awesome things as allowing driver swapping at runtime.
But at least finish ONE of them. One working thing is A TON better than 99 broken ones.

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You can blame that on Josh too because I haven't been able to update any of the examples on the EDC, because him and Ism decided to show up out of the blue and wreck the thing and leave it broken for months.
The examples are not the ones necessarily needing an update (though because of color changes some do require it). Others just break because the ENIGMA is broken.

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Not as far as graphics programming goes, if it wasn't for me we wouldn't have Direct3D.
And I was about to ask who gives a shit. But clearly Poly really needs it for his Voodoo3.

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I am clearly not the inexperienced one here or we'd still have OpenGL 1 software rendering and call lists where any half decent model takes up 500 mb's of ram.
I doubt it. Removing deprecated GL functions was one of the goals anyway. Something we still haven't done mind you. And I was not referencing trowing together something that "works". I am referring to software development.

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Not to mention I'm not the one that suggested using 4 floats for representing color.
Wow, here take a medal.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: Sslaxx on December 18, 2013, 03:30:53 PM
I assume that's what LLVM is for, TheExDeus - to create compiler infrastructure. GML/EDL-to-LLVM IR-to-C/C++-etc.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: Goombert on December 18, 2013, 03:34:32 PM
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GML->C++
Yes LLVM has the interface we need already completed, less buggy, and probably way more thorough and optimized than what we will ever have.

https://github.com/rpjohnst/dejavu

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GM didn't have anything like that until GM:S. Now it does have some kind of GML->C++.
Right, but Game Maker's interpreter/runner from 2005 is still less buggy than what we have now.

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But at least finish ONE of them.
I have, Direct3D 9 is finished now, aside from some getpixel functions and a few texture functions that I have not written because I haven't been able to think about how to make the best abstraction for the functions that can be the same for OpenGL systems. And it works with the Mario game, Phantom light flare, house effects, and some other games.

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Poly really needs it for his Voodoo3.
25% of the computer market is still Windows XP.

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I am referring to software development.
And of course, you are only saying it in the first place because Ism's shitpost she made earlier which was also complete crap. Saying I'm adding sooo many new features and not fixing all of her bugs.

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Others just break because the ENIGMA is broken.
Then perhaps you should actually list them, because the ones I know of is the FPS example because I uploaded a heavily modified version that would work without event inheritance and can't update because EDC is broke, Box2D example broke because the API changed and I updated the functions and provided overloads to the Studio versions but again the EDC is broke so I can't upload the fixed version. Or you could just you know, stay on the Josh/Ism band wagon and point fingers at people about things you don't have a clue about.

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Wow, here take a medal.
I am not asking for a medal, I am asking for you guys not to make stupid accusations.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: time-killer-games on December 18, 2013, 03:39:12 PM
Quite honestly if I had the kind of money to bribe you Josh, and Robert and ISM, and anyone else who may quit or already has quit on this, I'd do it in a heartbeat, but I can't drive and don't have a job yet even though I'm 19 if only you guys didn't make this conclusion until after I started making some decent money to bribe you guys with. Not a single developer or member that leavesthis project or community will be forgotten or not missed.

Sorry to see you gone, too. I thought you were our last hope and now that's ruined too. And thanks to everyone who'd rather argue and ridicule than actually use that same time to develop more, we really didn't need that, and that's what is ultimately destroying this project.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: egofree on December 18, 2013, 04:10:37 PM
When i tried ENIGMA in spring, it had a lot of bugs, and it's in much better shape now. And the person who worked the most for ENIGMA this year is Robert. If Robert didn't work on this project, it would be already dead. So people who are criticizing him should not forget this. I am very grateful for all the work Robert has done for us. Also he was very dedicated to helping people on the forum. I don't say he was the only one, but he has given a lot of his time helping others. Some people says that he didn't finish anything useful for the project. This is wrong. Two examples, very useful for me :  Inheritance and improvement of the sprites editor.
Anyway the day Robert decides to really leave the project, i am afraid the project will become vaporware.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: TheExDeus on December 19, 2013, 02:24:30 AM
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Yes LLVM has the interface we need already completed, less buggy, and probably way more thorough and optimized than what we will ever have.
Have you tested it? It's 2 years old and who knows how thorough and less buggy it is. Also ENIGMA is not about just GML anymore, but EDL as well. So probably a lot of stuff will have to be additionally written. But I guess it's worth a shot. I am just skeptical it will be any better.

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Right, but Game Maker's interpreter/runner from 2005 is still less buggy than what we have now.
It's weird it had any bugs at all. The interpreter didn't change GML into C++ or Delphi or whatever. It ran the code itself directly. And considering GM is from 1999 (and the guy writing it is a professor coding since 80's) then I don't see how that is somehow an achievement over ENIGMA.

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25% of the computer market is still Windows XP.
GL works on XP just fine. It's the crappy support for integrated cards from 2005 that is the problem. Right now I have tested ENIGMA on about 5 machines, worst of which have integrated Intel's and integrated Mobile cards, and GL works fine on all of them. Even surfaces.

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you are only saying it in the first place because Ism's shitpost she made earlier which was also complete crap
I have actually made that point several times before. But I guess you just didn't notice.

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Then perhaps you should actually list them,
I will just probably try to fix them myself. Mostly they are rendering bugs.

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I am asking for you guys not to make stupid accusations.
I can assure you the accusations are not stupid. They are not really accusations anyway. Just stating information.

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And the person who worked the most for ENIGMA this year is Robert. If Robert didn't work on this project, it would be already dead.
And he did a lot. But saying ENIGMA would be dead is exaggeration. ENIGMA was not that active about half a year before he showed up, but it was far from dead. The idea was that Josh would start again when he has free time. Now I feel Robert is one of the several reasons he wont.

Anyway, this topic should be about Josh. Everything else mentioned here has been discussed many times before.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: Goombert on December 19, 2013, 03:35:11 AM
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Have you tested it? It's 2 years old and who knows how thorough and less buggy it is. Also ENIGMA is not about just GML anymore, but EDL as well. So probably a lot of stuff will have to be additionally written. But I guess it's worth a shot. I am just skeptical it will be any better.
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that is somehow an achievement over ENIGMA.
You completely missed the point there, LLVM already has a pretty solid interface for parsing. Worrying about having an EDL language that will provide classes and things is and was at least the biggest waste of time, if anything the focus should have been writing a solid C++->GML parser with LLVM first, and do his custom parser that can provide all those extras as a fun side project.

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GL works on XP just fine.
Polygonz is on Vista and has DirectX 10/11 support. There have also been quite a few others that have come here and had problems with surfaces.

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I have actually made that point several times before. But I guess you just didn't notice.
So stop defending it then, the majority of my work with LateralGM was fixing pre-existing bugs and regressions in her code.

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Just stating information.
Then name one of them that isn't a complete fabrication or distortion of the facts.

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Now I feel Robert is one of the several reasons he wont.
I didn't even start this, IsmAvatar came out of the blue and started being overly critical and then Josh started to throw a fit with cheeseboy. I am sick of it, neither of them have any reason to complain and they are simply being dramatic.

All I ask is if Josh could at least fix one damn thing, even if its a small bug or to get something working, but he can't do that, and again nobody can ask him questions because he is immediately condescending!
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: egofree on December 19, 2013, 08:04:04 AM
TheExDeus:
I don't want to spend my time quarreling about this, as it seems that almost all developers are already doing it, but for example when i remember the following post : http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=1245.0 ,where Robert posted in may an update with a changelog of 66 items, mostly bugs fixing, it seems to me that was very useful for the project. So i don't understand when you say that Robert is not doing anything useful for the project.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: TheExDeus on December 19, 2013, 08:17:55 AM
I didn't say he is not doing anything useful for the project. I said that first - people shouldn't exaggerate about him being somehow savior of ENIGMA. It was fine before he came here. And second - he is anxious but not very experienced. That means lot of things break all the time and while bug fixes of course are made, he often times just starts on something else before finishing the first thing. But if this extreme programming works for him then great. Most of the problems would of been fixed with more thorough merge control (now we mostly doesn't check before merging his changes) and regression testing.

Anyway, carry on. For me it's just that Josh was the only reason I joined ENIGMA and he has helped me out immensely over the years. Sad to see him go. I hope he changes his mind and we just reorganize. Put him to work on parser/compiler side of things and other could work on the functional stuff. Previously we had a2h to work on site side of things and then people like Josh didn't have to mess with it.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: egofree on December 19, 2013, 08:39:02 AM
It was fine before he came here.

Sorry, but it was not fine. I feel gratitude for all developers who spent their time on this project, but one year ago the project was very buggy. I tried very hard to develop my game with ENIGMA, but it had a lot of problems. I don't say GM is bugs free of course, but it's better. I am sure i am not the only one who feels the same. There is no wonder, if ENIGMA was not very successful so far, it was mainly because it had a lot of bugs. Anyway i am not complaining as it's free project, but if we want ENIGMA to become successful, we have to face reality.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: DaSpirit on December 19, 2013, 08:57:01 AM
The idea was that Josh would start again when he has free time. Now I feel Robert is one of the several reasons he wont.
The real reason was because cheeseboy and RobertBColton have been deleting many things lately, including parts of the compiler. Josh kept telling them that they didn't know what they're doing, but they wouldn't listen. This is what drove Josh to leave. In addition, many members have become rude to Josh, telling Josh that he's worthless. Josh won't come back until he's been apologized to.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: Goombert on December 19, 2013, 09:31:24 AM
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It was fine before he came here.
Harri, you are freaking contradicting yourself, just a few posts back you said things were rather inactive before I arrived. It depends on what your obscure definition of "fine" is but I would say by these standards my arrival was an improvement.

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he is anxious but not very experienced.
Again, you provide no evidence of that, and I have provided plenty to the contrary so why don't you stop spreading Ism's propaganda.

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The real reason was because cheeseboy and RobertBColton have been deleting many things lately, including parts of the compiler. Josh kept telling them that they didn't know what they're doing, but they wouldn't listen.
What the fuck are you talking about, we have deleted none of his compiler, cheeseboy suggests it each time Josh throws a fit, and this time I am seriously starting to consider making a switch to Rusky's because of this nonsense.

And please for the love of god tell him to stop saying Rusky's parser won't do what we want it to do. We're not that stupid we are clearly fucking aware we'd have to write the code to tell LLVM how we want shit parsed, but it still serves a replacement for 99% of his shit which wouldn't come out as optimal as Clang/LLVM anyway, because I would venture the guys writing LLVM/Clang are also much more experienced then he is, no offense but he's only a 22 year old college graduate. Clang/LLVM has a much broader array of uses and a lot more developers.

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This is what drove Josh to leave. In addition, many members have become rude to Josh, telling Josh that he's worthless.
So? Even if some people have become annoyed with him, we aren't in preschool, this isn't kindergarten. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

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Josh won't come back until he's been apologized to.
We'll welcome him back when he decides to stop being an arrogant prick and actually cooperate, that doesn't mean he doesn't make the ultimate decisions but he doesn't need to be an ass about every single thing.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: time-killer-games on December 19, 2013, 09:35:12 AM
If all these people leave I flat out refuse to let this become vaporware. If it means I should spend hours learning how to expand this project myself I'm really close to the point of doing that.
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: fervi on December 20, 2013, 05:16:08 AM
Josh, go eat pizza, drink coke, watch Home Alone and back to us

Fervi
Title: Re: I'm out
Post by: Salvakiya on January 09, 2014, 10:23:59 PM
If all these people leave I flat out refuse to let this become vaporware. If it means I should spend hours learning how to expand this project myself I'm really close to the point of doing that.

I second this. This project has way too much learning potential to become vaporware. Despite my lack of C++ knowledge it looks like I am going to have to learn it =\ .