Holes in everything...

[edsquare]

Thanks edsqaure. I don't want to discuss this for so long as I'm already getting a head ache, last thing I'd like to say about evolution then we can all go back to discussing holes in religion if you'd rather, as there's a lot more we'll agree on.

I won't dismiss the possibility that not all dinosaurs died off or evolved before we came along. At the time being we have no way to know that for certain. I doubt evolutionists would make a hoax of dinosaurs living with us, what would that accomplish?

So you know, our flesh and body chemistry is a lot closer to pigs and rodents than apes. We have a much more similar siloette to the apes. But that's not enough to say we're 95-ish percent close to them in the evolving cycle. We are much more different that you think. Compare the intellectual copacity of an apes that can use sticks to catch bugs and then look at a human mind that can create a supercomputer from scratch. There's no comparison. We may look similar but our relation in the development in our brain is what most of all brings me to conclude we transitioned from being apes over a much longer timespan than what a good number of scientist would agree on.

Plesiosaurs aren't dinos I know, that didn't come to mind when I was posting that but I still made my suggested point.

Okey I'll stop pestering you about this as well, but... Do you know what the Rh factor of your blood exams means? it stands for Rhessus factor as in the rhesus monkey.

Some other time if you like we can talk a lot about evolution but first I advise you to go here: http://www.talkorigins.org/

And here: http://www.pandasthumb.org/

[TheExDeus]

I don't think talking about Holes in fantasy stories is even necessary. If you come to understand that every religion and every religious book is written by people, then finding plot holes is not really hard. So I won't debate about that. But the last thing you touched is actually science, so we might talk about that.

Check out this interesting article, written by an evolutionist I might add...

Sure he is actually evolutionist? Looking at some other articles by him I have my doubts. Be he could be. Doesn't matter though. His article was a good mention of many things, but sadly was very biased (even though he tried to hide it), because at least half of the things he mention there are already known to be a hoax in one way or another. He could at least mention that and let people decide. Right now it seems more like a deception. But as he is most probably not a scientist, then I didn't really expect unbiased information (aka facts) from him.

The fact is we lived among dinosaurs. Instead of acting like evolution is disproved by it and hiding it from the public or writing skeptical articles, we could just brainstorm a logical explanation behind it.

Don't get ahead of yourself. There is no "fact" of that - at least not in the theories in that article. And people have found logical explanations for all of those - it's your choice to agree with those explanations or not. Nobody tries to hide anything. As I said, at least half are already known to be hoaxes or most probably be hoaxes (The Acambaro Figurines, The Ica Stones, The Granby Idol etc.). So there actually need to be solid archeological evidence for any of that before they could even be considered as a theory. Then the fact to consider is that most of the stuff mentioned in that article that is actually old is not that old (like carving on temples made in 1100AD), and by then people would have written down information on those creatures and not just carved them. If we look on things written by ancient people (like ancient greek's and so on) all the animals mentioned are ones that are know to have existed then or exists now. There are many mythological creatures though (griffins, harpy's etc.) that nobody believes to have existed and some of them (like hydras) actually look like dinosaurs. The problem with the theory that humans lived with dinosaurs is that no archeological evidence of that has been found. Oldest human remains are nowhere close the age of the oldest dinosaur remains. It would makes sense that at least some of the dino's would be a lot younger in that case. I do think ancient people knew that something must of existed before them - they probably though hundreds of years the most. They could think that because ancient people were also very likely to find the same bones. From the bones they could of thought about the size and even look of the creature. That probably is one of many things that influenced many mythological creatures.
So the theory is not dismissed by prejudice. It's dismissed because scientists need verifiable evidence, which for now isn't there. If there was any evidence, I am sure scientists would acknowledge it in a heart beat. Like discoveries in the past few decades have pushed the oldest human remains back the oldest living humanoid many thousands of years. What science do best is adapt to new information.

edit: It also sucks that you could loose friends or family just because your views don't match theirs. Especially when I guess you don't want to change them or even care that they are Christians. You love them no matter what, yet they could stop loving you just because you are an atheist? How very Cristian of them... I guess the fact I live what is considered Northern Europe helps in this regard. From all my friends, family and coworkers, maybe 3 people are actually religious. Most are agnostics and many are atheists. So it's not really a problem here. Historically Latvia was actually the last place to be Christianized in the Crusades, as Latvian tribes fought it back. It meant that in the end we even have old religious traditions that have only fused with Christianity. Like our old gods were the Sun (most importantly), Thunder, Moon and some others. This naturalistic worship (like druids or something ) is actually still in respect here. So either though I'm an atheist and don't believe in any god, I still worship (in a non-religions way) nature. That is why we try to be extremely green and ecological. If anyone is actually interested I suggest reading about it a little - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_mythology . Pretty original stuff (relatively speaking).

edit2:

Compare the intellectual copacity of an apes that can use sticks to catch bugs and then look at a human mind that can create a supercomputer from scratch.

So you are saying (by the whole paragraph you wrote) our intelectual capacity is closer to rodants and pigs? Intelligents doesn't really stem from biology that much. You can be a 99.99% match, but one can be a genius and the other can be no smarter than an ape.

[Darkstar2]

You'll like this one then Darkstar2

There is a difference between having faith and being fanatic.  Fanatic is something I am not, I agree that religion has flaws. This is a dangerous topic to be discussing on a forum as some people might be touchy, mind you I have an open mind and like to debate, I don't let religion dictate my life, but I do believe in God, there are so many things science cannot explain, and looking around how the world has become I do believe evil exists, therefore I do believe in God/Supreme being.

UNFORTUNATELY God and religion have been made into industries to prey on the gullible - they have become an industry where some TV ministries and other organisations earn millions of $ those bloody motherfuckers whilst people are starving to death, selling their snake oil, fraud and stealing money.  But genuinely I do believe in God and the history, only that some of it was mangled and made commercial for profit and that is what makes me livid ! BECAUSE that gives the wrong impression and this is what has turned some believers away.

[Darkstar2]

I respect other religion and people's belief and one thing I won't do is bash or low blow, like some do....... Rather have faith in it (lose nothing, as I am not running my life on fanaticism) than believing in nothing and losing out.  Seeing how evil the world has become and what is going on only reinforces my faith.  I know few atheists / skeptics who have turned !  yes evil does exist, look around you, kids are killing much younger, violence is on the motherfucking rise, insane weather, etc.......

@edsquare : So you are an ordained minister ?  You probably did not pay attention in class   Yes there are many flaws with human, our machine is very flawed and defective - but keep in mind, we as humans are responsible for all the shite that is happening on this motherfucking planet !  It's easy to blame God for everything and for not "intervening" - but God gave us FREE WILL.... and by free will we have choices and we make them and live through their consequences.  There are many times where I have been bloody angry and cussed out ..... but I quickly redeem myself and know that everything happens for a reason and that it's all about free will.... If I were to walk on the bloody roof top and go to the edge and bloody jump, is God going to stop me ? is he going to place a bloody force field that will prevent this white motherfucker to jump ? NO....... Why ? because I have FREE WILL !!!

EVERYONE has free will.

Those who don't believe in God or have no faith I respect that and those who believe in a spaghetti and meatballs God I respect that too I won't go bashing your God......

I believe in God.  What I don't believe in is the bloody RUBBISH, commercialised highly biased money ridden corrupted shite that has been made ! also I am not into praying statues, objects, etc.

Without this fucking shite SCAM that religion and world ministries have become and earning billions on the backs of the poverty, I guess there would be more believers.....

But that again is a delicate topic.  There is another religion that also has flaws, and I won't go into that and really don't think it's a good idea to be talking about religion on a public forum as we are bound to get our arsed torn

If "JC" (That infamous character who calls on many talk shows including Art Bell) were to read these posts here he'd tear us all a new arsehole.......... LOL.

[edsquare]

@Darkstar2

Yes I am and I did pay attention, but I think I will refrain from commenting on this subject anymore, since it's likely to lead nowhere and to build anymosity between us.

Edit: This Freewill of the child molesters is so precious that He/She/It can't prevent the systematic rape of children?

[Darkstar2]

@Darkstar2

Yes I am and I did pay attention, but I think I will refrain from commenting on this subject anymore, since it's likely to lead nowhere and to build anymosity between us.

Edit: This Freewill of the child molesters is so precious that He/She/It can't prevent the systematic rape of children?

Yes this is a touchy topic, there are pedophiles in every religion, and yes it's pathetic to see these kind of crimes committed sometimes by the people you least expect and who are ministers, priests, etc.  But again, if you understand the concept, and read the bible and history, sin existed since the beginning of man kind, God does *NOT* prevent sin whatever the implication, and again it comes to free will.  I do believe in Karma and I do believe those won't go unpunished........We both can agree that those pedophiles, rapists, etc, have only one destination.......   But there again maybe life is just an experiment, we are meant to live in a fucked up world, maybe there is a purpose, and the whole pedophile, rapists, etc is all about EVIL, all this is covered as well, if the world was perfect and every bad thing was PREVENTED by a supreme force then you might as well call it heaven, not earth.......So yeah life is just an experiment created by a supreme being.
But I think I see and understand now what turned you atheist, in a way I share your frustrations which are the same, I have on may occasions cussed out and asked how the bloody FUCK can God allow what's going on in this shite world we live in ? But there again I think life has a purpose, and it was not meant to be pleasant and perfect - so I try as much as possible to channel out this rubbish though it's difficult because you hear about it everyday in the news.  But evil, false prophets, corruption, etc all that is covered and things are happening now before our eyes, can't be denied.  IS it GOD to blame for not stopping it or preventing it ? NO.....it's us bloody CUNTS of human beings to blame as we choose our own faiths, God gave us freedom to decide...... But as an ordained minister if you became an atheist because of that reason alone, and because of all the HORROR stories you hear from your colleagues or the church, vatican, ministries and other highly corrupt organisations crafted by man kind ? then it's sad because this is the power of evil getting the best of you.  Mind you as a kid remember we used to say our prayers before meals, and before bed time, go to church etc, I used to - but as you grow up you kinda lose that and your faith takes a hit, for much the same reasons covered above, and I'm probably not the best person to talk about this as I am not exactly a practicing catholic, have not seen a church in ages, and don't make it a habit of praying, though I do believe and I have faith, which I almost lost for the same reasons as most, though I watch the news and watch what's going on around me daily and that is the only thing keeping my faith lit........
But I guess to each their own.

I do think DIRE things are to come......BUT out o this will come good.

If you get out your house tomorrow and fall off stairs and break your nose will you blame GOD for not preventing your fall ?  I'm guilty of that I must admit, used to cuss out why ? Because I have free will, but also I know better.....and I think with everything going on in the world, full of SHITE, corruption and evil, I now understand that all this was foreseen and has a meaning / purpose.  Hopefully something good will come of it, if not, then I did not lose anything as again, I know I lived my life without letting religion and man crated corruption dictate my actions.

Nice topic though I think most of us here are open minded enough you can elaborate no animosity as I said I have an open mind and I'm not exactly an example anyway  

We were created with flaws and the things around us, but we have been given free will.
Yes that includes free will to destroy our planet.

Cheers.

[time-killer-games]

@ExDeus you seem to know what your talking about I'll take your word for it. On a different topic you're right that very much does make them major hypocrites.

[edsquare]

@Darkstar2

Yes I am and I did pay attention, but I think I will refrain from commenting on this subject anymore, since it's likely to lead nowhere and to build anymosity between us.

Edit: This Freewill of the child molesters is so precious that He/She/It can't prevent the systematic rape of children?

Yes this is a touchy topic, there are pedophiles in every religion, and yes it's pathetic to see these kind of crimes committed sometimes by the people you least expect and who are ministers, priests, etc.  But again, if you understand the concept, and read the bible and history, sin existed since the beginning of man kind, God does *NOT* prevent sin whatever the implication, and again it comes to free will.  I do believe in Karma and I do believe those won't go unpunished........We both can agree that those pedophiles, rapists, etc, have only one destination.......   But there again maybe life is just an experiment, we are meant to live in a fucked up world, maybe there is a purpose, and the whole pedophile, rapists, etc is all about EVIL, all this is covered as well, if the world was perfect and every bad thing was PREVENTED by a supreme force then you might as well call it heaven, not earth.......So yeah life is just an experiment created by a supreme being.

So basically we are an ant farm and god is a child with a magnifiying glass?

But I think I see and understand now what turned you atheist, in a way I share your frustrations which are the same, I have on may occasions cussed out and asked how the bloody FUCK can God allow what's going on in this shite world we live in ? But there again I think life has a purpose, and it was not meant to be pleasant and perfect - so I try as much as possible to channel out this rubbish though it's difficult because you hear about it everyday in the news.  But evil, false prophets, corruption, etc all that is covered and things are happening now before our eyes, can't be denied.  IS it GOD to blame for not stopping it or preventing it ? NO.....it's us bloody CUNTS of human beings to blame as we choose our own faiths, God gave us freedom to decide...... But as an ordained minister if you became an atheist because of that reason alone, and because of all the HORROR stories you hear from your colleagues or the church, vatican, ministries and other highly corrupt organisations crafted by man kind ? then it's sad because this is the power of evil getting the best of you.  Mind you as a kid remember we used to say our prayers before meals, and before bed time, go to church etc, I used to - but as you grow up you kinda lose that and your faith takes a hit, for much the same reasons covered above, and I'm probably not the best person to talk about this as I am not exactly a practicing catholic, have not seen a church in ages, and don't make it a habit of praying, though I do believe and I have faith, which I almost lost for the same reasons as most, though I watch the news and watch what's going on around me daily and that is the only thing keeping my faith lit........
But I guess to each their own.

Not only the pedophiles, natural disasters, desease, greed, corruption, the total failure of prayer, among other things took a hit to my faith, but what ended killing it was the bible itself, since I didn't had the faith blindfold covering my eyes and mudding my reason, readding the bible opened my eyes to the atrocities promulgated by my christianity, not to mention the horrors done in it's name.

Jesus said he didn't came to change the law but to fullfill it, and that not a single iota or dot of the law would change until the endtimes. Therefore all the 613 commandments are still in place and not only the ten the christians follow, and among all the commandments there's not a single mention about not raping people, let alone children, yet there's one about mixed fabrics, and several about what to eat, when and how.

I do think DIRE things are to come......BUT out o this will come good.

If you get out your house tomorrow and fall off stairs and break your nose will you blame GOD for not preventing your fall ?  I'm guilty of that I must admit, used to cuss out why ? Because I have free will, but also I know better.....and I think with everything going on in the world, full of SHITE, corruption and evil, I now understand that all this was foreseen and has a meaning / purpose.  Hopefully something good will come of it, if not, then I did not lose anything as again, I know I lived my life without letting religion and man crated corruption dictate my actions.

Nice topic though I think most of us here are open minded enough you can elaborate no animosity as I said I have an open mind and I'm not exactly an example anyway  

We were created with flaws and the things around us, but we have been given free will.
Yes that includes free will to destroy our planet.

Cheers.

So we are created sick and commanded to get well, how fucked up is that? This homicidal, egomaniac, unsure, homophobe, misoginistic god ceated us as we are, and then has the gall to command us to be different? The sins of the father pass to the sons? fuck him! My son wasn't born evil or with any imperfection (and I would say the same thing even if he had any dissability), he was a perfect and beautiful baby, and now is a perfect and loving teenager.

About the origin of evil nobody can say it better than Epicurus so I will just quote him:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Unless He proves beyond any doubt and in a falsiable way to exist I don/t believe in his existence, almost every religious person is an atheist in regards to the god/gods of all the other religions, I just went one god further.

There are around 40 thousand christian denominations, with the same number of interpretations of the bible, which one is right and why?

How can anyone know for sure that it's not Mahoma, Buda, Hanuman, Zeus, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, the one true god?

And about hedging my bets... believing in order to avoid the posibility of hell is not believing is just hipocrisy.

Life has meaning and purpose? of course it has! Well at least mine does, to do good by my fellow humans, to be the best example for my son, to guide him when he needs it, to hold him and to know when to let him go.

Morality? The bible has no high ground and neither does any other religious book I have read ( so far only the bible, the coran and the tora), what is so moral about hating homosexuals? where is the morality in treating women as second class humans? Where is the morality in picketting dead soldiers funerals and enhancing the suffering of the family? For every good thing a religion does it does a hundred bad things.

Check out the worst countries for women and you'll find they are among or the most religious countries, the worst AIDS epidemic is in a country in Africa (I don't remember the name) and the Catholic and other christian misionaries there constantly tell the people the the use of the condom not only doesn't help in preventing the contagion but helps spreading it. 

The poorest and most ignorant people are the ones that have more children, why? because their religions tell them that any form of anticonception is a sin. 

This I heard in a song in youtube:

I have no problem with the religious believes of other fuckers
as long as those believes don't impact in the happines of others
but if you build a church in claims of moral authority
and with threats of hell impose it on others in society
then you you m.....rf...er can expect some fking raft
when it turns out you benn fking us in the mrfking asses

if he protects a single fker whose a kiddie fker the he's not better than the mrfking rappist.

Peace out bro. 

[Darkstar2]

So basically we are an ant farm and god is a child with a magnifiying glass?

Science cannot answer everything, can you ?  What created this universe, how can something be created from eternal blackness / void ? if there were no supreme being wouldn't we already have a logical explanation to this ?  Some claim we are a product of advanced life forces on other universes, ant farms ? lol yeah maybe...... Or perhaps God created it all and left everything up to free will.  My point is, life is not just a random event, there is a purpose to it, I DO strongly believe we each have a purpose and everything that happens has a reason, I'm not going to go too much into detail why I think this way, but let me just tell you some FACTS......  Haven't you noticed some people are so lucky, seem not to work or do any work and succeed whilst some other people are nice, peaceful and go nowhere in life and fail ?  I think we are predestined to certain things, already science is studying the so-called luck gene, and other type of info locked in our genes, which can determine our traits, health, etc.  We have free will for our decisions and actions, but certain things are hard coded.  Why the FUCK do some people eat tons of sugar and are morbidly obese yet have normal health and no diabetes ? Whilst some people are skinny, eat healthy, work out and have diabetes, and other diseases ?

Our we subject to an experiment, or are all of the above explained by man made influences (pollution, lifestyle, free will) which shapes future generation of human defects ?  One thing for sure, science is studying more about this and it seems more plausible that we don't have control over everything.....LIFE itself was created and everything surrounding it, so who created religion, languages, pollution, wars, money, corruption, etc......Man or God ? This one is easy.  The world could have been an ideal one, but who turned it around ? Corruption & evil and control.    Weren't older generations living happier with much less and yet people have so much more and are still not happy now.......So it's God's fault Or man kind ?
Did you know that in evolution at some point our bodies had the ability to grow new organs ? heal itself, etc........? So perhaps we took a pristine creation and fucked it up.
Now some might say "Well God must have known about this, referring to revelations and stuff" well, I have not read the whole bible but familiar with this section, and it is SCARY that some of the stuff in the bible is written with frightening accuracy and manifesting today as we speak.......SO, this makes the argument more plausible that there is a reason for everything and that which is happening is meant to be.

Not only the pedophiles, natural disasters, desease, greed, corruption, the total failure of prayer,

You are right, except that's it man kind who made a choice to steer away from God......Remember God is not a controlling dictatorship.    Failure of prayer, yeah that's another topic I can write 300 pages about.......How do people pray is PATHETIC.
Praying status, stone, wooden crosses, etc, people don't worship God but statues and objects, so yeah if you are praying to inanimate objects which 99.9% is the case, then it's no wonder.  Personally I have witnessed people who benefited from prayer, but again this is highly open to debate......Some scientists claim we have a "God" area in our brain, and we have the power to attract or repel everything that happens in our lives.  Honestly I don't fucking believe in the power of attraction rubbish, yet science is more inclined toward this theory than a God.......and oddly I know people who benefited quite a lot more from this theory than God and prayer though if I'm being honest......However,  I am not ready to dismiss the existence of a supreme being. 

among other things took a hit to my faith, but what ended killing it was the bible itself, since I didn't had the faith blindfold covering my eyes and mudding my reason, readding the bible opened my eyes to the atrocities promulgated by my christianity, not to mention the horrors done in it's name.

True, so true, but you don't have to read the bible to know this.....I get so angry when I read and see on the news on a regular basis all the corruption and CRIMES of enormous atrocities committed using the religion but remember, again, man made.  If people are using God's name in vein and doing atrocities is it God's fault ?  If we did not have free will we would be a bunch of Robots, no soul, no mind, no nothing, just a bunch of puppets in flesh

Jesus said he didn't came to change the law but to fullfill it, and that not a single iota or dot of the law would change until the endtimes. Therefore all the 613 commandments are still in place and not only the ten the christians follow, and among all the commandments there's not a single mention about not raping people, let alone children, yet there's one about mixed fabrics, and several about what to eat, when and how.

You can have 5000 commandments, man kind has been given the free will to follow it.

Everything you speak of above comes from EVIL influence......and according to scripture that will be dealt with, and those who suffered as a result who stayed faithful and repent for their sins, would also get dealt with (in a good way).  No crime goes unpunished.  There is one passage in the Bible that talks about the rise of evil, brother against brother, torn families, hate, violence, etc........Look at the news...look around, things are manifesting with 100% accuracy, you see more crimes against children, evil violent children, kid killing parents, parents killing kids, etc........these things are all the rise of EVIL ........ IT IS EXACTLY THIS that raised my faith a notch, because I understood the meaning of it all.   Is it normal to see more and more kids so violent SO YOUNG !?!?!?  World is full of HATE and crime, that is the rise of EVIL, now one could say "so why doesn't God intervene and end this......" He never said he'd prevent this, the scriptures even foresaw all of this in great detail and it was written that this WOULD be dealt with, and nobody would know when or see it coming.

So we are created sick and commanded to get well,

No, we are sick because of corruption, because of man made pollution, because of the multi trillion medical industry which is a big  crooked scam making medicine that makes you more ill.......processed foods, chemicals, all of that ........As much as medical science has made advancement and we are able to cure stuff, on the down side a lot of cures are being withheld due to this trillion $ industry.....I do strongly believe we have the ability and knowledge to cure most diseases but in the name of evil, money and corruption it is withheld, and of course population control........  Not everyone is born sick   There are many things still not understood fully be science though, but a lot of our life story and health can be decoded from our genes, science only solved part of the puzzle on that.  Could what we are going through in life be influenced by how we lived any past lives ? I think life as we know it has a purpose.....what ?  Maybe we find out one day.......

how fucked up is that? This homicidal, egomaniac, unsure, homophobe, misoginistic god ceated us as we are, and then has the gall to command us to be different? The sins of the father pass to the sons? fuck him! My son wasn't born evil or with any imperfection (and I would say the same thing even if he had any dissability), he was a perfect and beautiful baby, and now is a perfect and loving teenager.

Well mate, what can I say As much as the world is full of evil, not everyone is a pedophile, rapist, criminal, homophobe, etc..... hopefully if scripture proves true, and I believe it will, this evil will be cleansed and thrown where it belongs.......   Mark of beast, I was so skeptic about this before but now with all the advances in technology, moving towards chip implants and chipped CC  big brother watching you everywhere, it's pretty obvious this passage in the Bible was accurate.  So I have 2 choices, blame God for this bloody fucking rubbish, or channel out the evil around me which I try hard to do, and not associate with any of that ....  I have a motherfucking disability, and I won't go into details, yet I have my mental capacities, 2 arms, 2 legs and I can walk, talk, eat, drink etc (I have myopia) and another condition which I won't get into.....makes life a fuck, however, on the flip side, I try to channel it out and enjoy WHAT I have and know there is a purpose to this....... Perhaps had I not read so much into this I might have felt differently.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Yeah I see where you are going and that is a mystery, but the scriptures were clear on that, that God's intervention would come, as he did leave free will, but to what extent, now that evil is taking over pretty much the entire planet, it is said that there will be intervention, and it IS mentioned that in the end times people would turn against God, burn Churches, etc.......and here is the perfect example of what is going on in the news......

Unless He proves beyond any doubt and in a falsiable way to exist I don/t believe in his existence, almost every religious person is an atheist in regards to the god/gods of all the other religions, I just went one god further.

So if that is the case, then man kind should have the answers to ALL........How our full body works including brain, how to explain the many things that cannot yet be explained.......what created the universe, etc.etc.etc........how to explain some people have amazing abilities beyond logic .....
So we don't have answers to a lot of shite, wouldn't you say that makes the idea of a supreme creator more plausible, ok forget the notion of God and religion, but if you dismiss that God exists then can you explain what created all of this ? from void ?  Whoever created this from void, who created the creator.........Can you answer that ?
No.  Perhaps as physical bodies we don't have the answer to this, but we might get this answer eventually as perhaps EVERYTHING already existed for eternity ?
but how ?

HOW to explain some people miraculously heal of the worst diseases ...... this is well documented in the medical field.....science still cannot explain our full brain function
and outside forces / influences.....

Science tries to discredit out of body experiences and near death by claiming it is the result of chemicals in the brain during death......but how the fuck do you explain documented cases of people being clinically and BRAIN dead for minutes and recalling and seeing the doctors, conversations across rooms, etc........ How do you explain that some people through regression hypnosis recalled some stuff with amazing detail and accuracy they would never have known......
How do you explain some people dream of traveling to places they NEVER have seen or been to before..... I know someone in my family that had this happen to them, dreaming of traveling to a place they never been to, seen or heard of, and yet one day when they did travel to that destination they knew where to go and identified with the exact place they saw in their dreams.

How to explain EVP and other paranormal phenomenon ? Science is not able to explain this till this day, so unless someone can give me answers to life's mysteries I will keep having faith that there is a supreme creator.......and one and only  creator for all man kind !  Perhaps man made RELIGION and GOD as an easy way to interface with said supreme being........ I think in the end, we have one creator for all...... WHY isn't our planet ideal, peaceful all get along, no criminals, no hate, no evil ? Ask the supreme creator or God....... But unless I get answers to these mysteries I would find it hard to not believe.

There are around 40 thousand christian denominations, with the same number of interpretations of the bible, which one is right and why?

That was all man made as a coping mechanism, I do think to some extent our faith in a God is linked to some area in our brain, science is figuring this out, as a way to help us cope. HOWEVER, 90% of the puzzle unsolved.......That is suffice for me to believe there is something bigger than we can explain.

How can anyone know for sure that it's not Mahoma, Buda, Hanuman, Zeus, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, the one true god?

Again man made territory - that's how we were hardwired.   I honestly do not believe in multiple Gods, but one God I don't believe in is a God that promises people paradise if they kill and murder others, and this is where a certain religion was mangled and biased by man kind......you know which I am talking about.......Yes Christianity has its flaws but many other religions also have flaws, all product of human intervention.

And about hedging my bets... believing in order to avoid the posibility of hell is not believing is just hipocrisy.

Another debate, is hell is a physical place or a state of mind (void, being away from everything and from God).  Sorry mate but I never said I had faith to avoid hell, I have faith because I realised the things happening around me along with other stuff I witnessed and along with the scriptures and what is happening all around.......Do I believe in evil ? YES.....do I believe in a hell ? YES.....do I believe in hell as a physical place with fire, etc....I'm on the fence on that one...... If there is a purgatory we are living on it, it's called EARTH......."HEAVEN" as a sky with puffy clouds, maybe that is harder to believe, I think "HEAVEN" is the ultimate state of energy where you are AWAY from the limits of physical life, evil, etc and at complete peace. Hell is the exact opposite, void, absence of everything, nothing, eternal torment.   Hypocrisy is not covered in the Bible in that regards, you either believe and have faith or you don't ,regardless of the reason......you do good, you repent of your sins and ask for forgiveness, whether you do this to avoid hell or because of genuine faith, is irrelevant.  You either believe or you don't....... My faith is genuine and has nothing to do with hell !

Morality? The bible has no high ground and neither does any other religious book I have read ( so far only the bible, the coran and the tora), what is so moral about hating homosexuals? where is the morality in treating women as second class humans? Where is the morality in picketting dead soldiers funerals and enhancing the suffering of the family? For every good thing a religion does it does a hundred bad things.

I don't care for any of that stuff, and once again, RELIGION is man's creation along with all the crap that comes with it. God did not event religion.  Humans were hard wired to interface and cope with life by creating language, God, Religion, the fact that man has created all this mess does not rule out an actual supreme being does not exist though, for reasons stated above, until the day where science will answer ALL the bloody questions.

Check out the worst countries for women and you'll find they are among or the most religious countries, the worst AIDS epidemic is in a country in Africa (I don't remember the name) and the Catholic and other christian misionaries there constantly tell the people the the use of the condom not only doesn't help in preventing the contagion but helps spreading it. 

Religoin != God.  Moot point.  Otherwise you are right from the above I won't argue there......But who dictates this rubbish ? Our supreme being, God or man made religions ?   It is also man made religion that says pleasure is a sin, (sex).  and that sex was meant as procreation...... So what is a sin, using a condom to avoid putting a child you can't care of and will probably throw in the garbage or flush down the toilet OR fucking without the rubber and putting the  child you knew you couldn't raise and care for ? Answer is simple...... The equation is simple God != religion. 

The poorest and most ignorant people are the ones that have more children, why? because their religions tell them that any form of anticonception is a sin. 

I don't subscribe to such rubbish.  What is a sin is to not use protection and put babies in the world you can't care for, and we see the results of what that gives by watching the world and the news......Again religion, man made.  Some religions consider it a sin eating carrots ......or having meatballs on a tuesday.........   In my books, our creator made sex pleasurable, and this thing called RELIGION is what sets those said "LIMITS" and those atrocities.

I have no problem with the religious believes of other fuckers
as long as those believes don't impact in the happines of others
but if you build a church in claims of moral authority
and with threats of hell impose it on others in society
then you you m.....rf...er can expect some fking raft
when it turns out you benn fking us in the mrfking asses

Man kind made an industry of God and mangled it, made fear out of it and stuff.  There is passage that says people will steer away from God, stop believing ,Churches burned, vacant, etc........it's all happening, fewer people go to Church now.....too much fear mongering and brainwash, they make an industry out of that and people getting RICH from that industry, I have a BIG problem with that, and which is why I don't subscribe to any of it.......I believe because I believe, not because I am supposed to or told to or any of the fear mongering.

What makes me SICK is those TV ministries, that prey (note the correct spelling ) on people, through programmes on fucking TV ask for money and brainwash people with BS......THAT is the product of evil and people are fooled and associate it with God......but when I see the fat CUNT on the tely spout his rubbish, I know he is not a man of God but evil and corruption......and most of these SO CALLED ministers are atheist and don't believe in shite.   I try not to let this ruin my faith because I know they have NOTHING to do with God.  Do good onto others should not come with a cost and should not be made into an industry to prey on vulnerable people.

BUY NOW OUR MIRACLE crystal cross for 3 easy installments of $49.99 if you order now we will include FREE of charge our amazing miracle healing bracelet........ BUT WAIT ,if you call within 10 minutes we will cut down one installment so you won't pay 3 but only TWO ***EASY*** installments of $49.99 each !!!!

What utter bloody nonsense.

and Sammy Thou Shall Not Pick your nose (or nose of other people ) LOL.

[edsquare]

@ Darkstar2:

I wont quote your whole huge post mate

Just a couple of points.-

Something from nothing: Science does not subscribe that in any way or form, yet every creation myth does, first a being/beings that exist beyond time and space, then the whole universe magically apears, and then humankind is made out of corn, mud, blood cloths etc.

By a loving god that would send us to burn forever if we do not sing his praise. And if we do then will reward us by sending us to heaven to keep on singing his glory for ever! and to live under his tiranic thought police for ethernity? No thanks

The evil/freewill thing: Even conceding that it must be untouched not matter if you're a mass murderer or a child molester, ok I'll give you that but... What about the inocent? why must they suffer in order for the degenerates to have their all-important freewill? Why not read their minds/hearts and if they are about to grab a children from the street kill them? if thinking is a sin then intent most surely is, the freewill is untouched and the inocent protected; I wont buy the divine plan and my inability to understand god's misterious ways, if he exists and he is all knowing, all powerful, then he most certainly can stop the child molesters before they do actual harm.

If he does exist and is such a dick as to let all those horrors to take place in order to prove to the devil who has the biggest cock... he is a prick and does not deserve as much as a how are you? let alone to be worshiped by me.

It really should not surprise me that the god of the bible is such a prick since it was the war god of the judeans before they became monotheists.

[egofree]

For newbies on this forum, perhaps they would be interested to know that we had already a long discussion about this subject (more or less) : http://enigma-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=1677.0

[The 11th plague of Egypt]

II) Catholic Christianity
Catholics have (in theory) even more holes in their faith than Protestants, even with the fact Catholics have been around MUCH longer!

A) What kind of "just" or "perfect" God would give his holy priests the reputation of general rapists and child molesters? 'Nuff said.

B) Pray to Mary? Pray to Holy Saints in Heaven? If a saint in heaven doesn't forgive me neither will Jesus? That's right, they have all the books the Protestants do but with "additional" books the Protestants don't. In the Protestant Bible, it's very clear and blatant (especially in Acts and Paul's letters) you don't pray to anyone but Jesus Himself (or the Trinity). But the "other" books the Protestants dropped and the Catholics kept don't say that at all. Your etenerinty doesn't have to be completely due to the Trinity's final decision, heck, what if someone who's in heaven doesn't like you? You're going to hell babe.

C) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.

a) Getting thrown out of the Eden garden was a metaphor* of mankind wanting to know more. Do more. Even evil, if so we pleased.
See the "De libero arbitrio" (by Erasmus) vs "De servo arbitrio" (by Luther), which was indicative of one of the theoretical fractures between Catholics and Protestants.
Short summary of "De libero arbitrio", God simply leaves the world in its shit because mankind wanted to be free.
So, if mankind wants to roll itself in shit, God lets it do so, because otherwise it would be taking its freedom away.
Some priests being dickheads and not being wiped out of existence is a consequence of that "free will for all" thing.
Freedom comes with responsibility, you know. Sin like an idiot and get what you deserve in the end.

b) man can save itself if it really repents its sins. This is one big thing on which Catholics and Protestants have a diametrically opposite view.
For a Catholic, "repent and be saved" is true.
Confession is a sacrament practiced only by Catholics after all, but, if somebody believes it's something that grants automatic salvation, then he's fooling himself. If you don't truly repent your sins, then confession will not save you, even worse, you are hijacking a sacred ritual and committing an additional sin. Some people joke about death bed confessions, but that's because they really don't know what repenting means. It's not just regretting the consequences of your actions. It means that if the same situation would happen again, you would act differently. That's something easier said than done. How many times did we do something we knew we would regret, again?
The Catholic view on the subject of salvation is different from the Protestants'. Jesus remembered us what is written in the Proverbs, the righteous man sins seven times a day. That is, we are weak and can fall to temptation. But, because of the free will you were given, you can decide whether you want to be saved or if you don't care and just want enjoy yourself while here on Earth. To be saved you should put some of your own effort to make good actions and pray for help not to sin.

*The mainstream interpretation of this tale in the Roman Catholic Church is that it was a parable, not something really happened.
Oh, and by the way, the Catholic Church accepts evolution as a possibility and stopped trying to discredit it a long time ago.

EDIT: sorry for the late edit, please reference this version

[TheExDeus]

And about hedging my bets... believing in order to avoid the posibility of hell is not believing is just hipocrisy.

Exactly. Whenever someone tells me about Pascal's Wager I am just saddened by the ignorance. Some of the reasons why it's stupid can be read here (http://www.alternet.org/story/149920/why_it%27s_not_a_%27safe_bet%27_to_believe_in_god?page=0%2C5), but I don't really care about all that. As an Atheist I respect life, I try to do as much as possible to help others in theirs. Because if this is the only life we have, then there is nothing more important to make it as good as possible for everyone. If god sends me to hell, because I didn't believe him, yet even if I was very good, then I don't even want to go to heaven. One of the commandments in most of religions are actually "God is a jealous god" - that always puzzled me. Why would I want to believe in him if he is an asshole? I better live in hell with people like Carl Sagan, than in heaven with O'Railly and an asshole god. If he cannot respect my actions, then it's his own problem. Especially when he is the reason why so many doesn't believe in him. Like so little would be required for him to show himself to others, yet he couldn't give two shits. He just wants to play with people and send ones with the brain to hell. It's like Mark Twain said - "Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.".

Life has meaning and purpose? of course it has! Well at least mine does, to do good by my fellow humans, to be the best example for my son, to guide him when he needs it, to hold him and to know when to let him go.

Again, exactly. Religious people often talk about life's meaning and purpose as if only god can it to them. Your life's meaning can be anything, and it's totally a personal thing. My life's purpose is to learn as much as things as possible, because I respect intellect, knowledge, curiosity. And trough this knowledge I try to help as much people as possible. To improve the world trough scientific advancements and help everyone in need.

Morality? The bible has no high ground and neither does any other religious book I have read ( so far only the bible, the coran and the tora), what is so moral about hating homosexuals? where is the morality in treating women as second class humans? Where is the morality in picketting dead soldiers funerals and enhancing the suffering of the family? For every good thing a religion does it does a hundred bad things.

I believe religious people are in fact sociopaths. One kind of sociopath is a person, who can't actually feel emotions, because of some chemical changes in his head. But if the person is like that from the minute he is born, then he of course will not know that. That means when he grows up he does what society and family asks of him and he behaves as required. This means he in fact "emulates emotions". He doesn't have an emotional problem with killing a person, but he doesn't do it because society told him not too. And he knows he will be punished (thrown in jail) if he does. And religious people are often the same - they need a book which actually tells them not to do, like "thou shall not kill" - that is a line only required for a sociopath. As Atheist I have more reasons not to kill, than a religious person. If they can even rationalize killing by "well he went to heaven", then as an atheist I cannot. This is the only existence we have, thus nothing is more important than it. So I wouldn't ever be able to kill a person (unless in defense of other peoples lives including my own), because that would mean I have take away what is the most important in this existence.

In a perfect world, with perfect scientists.  In reality scientists are human beings like others, not worse, but not better, and often they follow political goals. You just have to see for example the topic of environment nowadays : you see 'scientists' who predict the end of the world if you don't follow their advise. Manipulating people with fear is not the monopoly of religions.

Your points are only valid if you believe a certain topic is only researched by one scientist. The reason science is so unbiased is because there are millions upon millions of scientists in the world - in every single country in the world. That means when one proposes something, then there is an army of people who criticizes it. When it holds up to criticism then it can be found as valid. But if science actually comes to a conclusion that we will have serious environment chances in the future can in fact will kill millions, then why wouldn't you listen? Religion is when people just yell that end of the world is coming. Science is when you make take everything you know, make a simulation and find that it really is.

Just to give a recent example. I live in Geneva, and soon there will be a huge project to understand and simulate the human brain : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Brain_Project. It is mainly funded by the European Union. Yesterday we have seen in the media that a group of 400 scientists signed a petition against this project. In newspapers, i've read interviews of scientists who said that this project in non-sense. I don't know if it's true or not, but i am rather confident that it is also a question of money. The problem is that a lot money will go only for one project, and the others projects will receive less money. So when a scientist says that a scientific project or theory is bullshit, you have to take into his background.

They didn't call it "non-sense" and they didn't call it because science is bad. They have problems with the goals of the project and of course the money involved. That doesn't make it politics. They are just feeling that one project which don't have the proper goals is worse than many smaller ones. Like if we have to send a hundred million rover to mars, we try to send one which will do the most good to science. And there is always a difference of opinion what is the most good. That doesn't discredit science one bit. It does the opposite - it shows that it's not about everyone staying in one mindset and disregarding everything else. It shows that there is a discussion, change and consensus. So this event shows how versatile science actually is. The project will most probably be changed to accommodate these scientist opinions, if possible.

[The 11th plague of Egypt]

III) Mormon Christianity
This is the most recently founded flavor of the Christian faith.

A) The founder of this religion had a "vision" from an *angel* named Moroni. The angel told him that Modern Christianity has been corrupted and the angel told him how it should've really been.

Galatians 1:6-9 in both Protestant and Catholic Christianity, which came long before the the Mormon faith says:

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Moroni was an angel from heaven, so to speak. Why Would God say 2000 years ago "let even angel from haven be cursed if it perverted my Gospel" and then an Angel comes down and does just that. Neither perception I consider correct, but imagining if one were correct, which would be more likely? Protestants/Catholics, or Mormons?

B) This one I have yet to do most of my research. Please feel free to suggest more for me to add to the list but I'll have to review the content with research first to ensure it's valid. I have to be very careful about adding to these lists to prevent "I told you so! You were wrong!" kind of arguments.

South Park has one of the best introductions on the foundation of Mormonism you can watch in less than 7 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06jF1EG8o-Q

[TheExDeus]

I agree that it needs to be called "climate change", because otherwise people get wrong impression. That was an oversight of the original scientists (who wrote papers for the scientific community, not the general public), as they never meant that it will get warmer and warmer. This misunderstanding is clearly shown when in winters we have record low temperatures and some people see it as a "proof that global warming doesn't happen" - which totally misses the point about the global warming. So it's called man-made climate change now. And the impact of that is visible in many different ways (like the number and scale of hurricanes USA experiences). But I personally love all the projects countries now invest in, especially EU, where we have renewable energy, support for electric vehicles, reducing air-population and so on. Even if 50 years from now the whole thing ends up as a false alarm, the world is still better off. But that some scientists are looked at differently because their opinions differ is logical - difference in opinion creates friction. But that doesn't mean they are fired or ignored. They are in some places, but in many places they aren't. Also, it isn't about the money they get because they would get money in either case. Those who are against man-made climate change still get paid if they still work as climate scientists. It's of course harder for them to get grants, because the majority has different opinion and so the whole community has different goals. It's like if a group of scientists wanted to launch a satellite to find possible evidence for invisible pink unicorn, while the others want to launch a satellite to study other galaxies. Of course the one with the galaxies will get funding more easily, even if the unicorn one still had merit. Basically it's down to Occam's Razor.