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time-killer-games
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Reply #31 Posted on: April 06, 2015, 12:43:22 pm |
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"Guest"
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lol no wonder why boomerang decompiler never worked for me as i thought advertised.
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 12:45:04 pm by time-killer-games »
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Darkstar2
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Reply #32 Posted on: April 06, 2015, 08:23:52 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1238
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We already had this discussion millions of times - It's easy to rip resources (art, models, sound, music etc.) from every game engine in existence.
Right, and leaving the bloody resources raw and unprotected makes it super easy......might as well make the rippers work for it Also there are ways to check for game focus and once out of focus said resources are removed from memory/VRAM or scrambled. The way I would handle a game is only load resources for current level, not all the fucking resources in RAM.... That's how most commercial games work, so to hack my resources they'd only have access to whatever is loaded in memory but again as said - there are clever ways to deter cheaters.......So if they cannot do it from memory they won't be able using external ripping tools either as the files on the HD would be encrypted I think you lot are missing the point, I could give a shite less what Mike or any bloke thinks, as an advanced developer I want to be given freedom to do what I bloody want with my game assets - not be IMPOSED stuff !!! I come on now - how many commercial games come in ONE EXE for fucksake ! Go look at any game, it's scattered with files all over....Some game companies don't protect their assets, and many do - but the point is they have freedom to.. putting everything in one EXE is bad practice, but it was done in GM for convenience and to calm the masses, because the kiddies using said software don't have advanced coding skills to make their own resource handling!!! so GM will always cater to the 0-9 year old range......you will see others agree with me that YYG has cornered people and imposed things........If I didn't know better I'd say you both switched sides and praising YYG for their glory and fail to see their many flaws......I wish Robert was here to remind you of some of them. because GM is not flawless....... And the fact it extracts a 3rd party dll you didn't make into a temp folder gives absolutely nothing to a wannabe ripper. Dll's by themselves are actually quite useless as well,
Again you missed the point ! Think of developers who release their shite in the MarketPlace, and SELL IT !!! Let's say for example you buy it and use it in your game........GUESS WHAT, the person who will run your game will have that DLL extracted in the temp folder ! THIS MEANS that anybody playing your game could steal your extension (the one you worked your tits off for and SELL!) and use it........This was reported to me by more than 1 developer on the MP!!! So the fact is, the way GM handles resources and file includes is actually a much safer way than any other engine. If you used the now free Unreal4 or Unity engine, you would see how easy it is to get resources from those as well.
For most of the market segment they target yes, but they cannot be taken seriously by those who want flexibility. They are clearly cornering people who want to do advanced stuff. I don't give a FUCK! it is MY decision to make how I handle my resources, not theirs or anybody else's, regardless of the damned excuses. They are very LAZY at best, the "we don't support this do your own" attitude is what has driven away some people from GM. now they give people a Market Place to sell their extensions, that's good, but yet those extensions sold in the MP are in plain view when you run an EXE that was used with it, so free for anybody to steal and use without paying ! LW was the first person to tell me about this, so please don,t give me this rubbish about how secure YYG is. lol. if I didn't know better I'd think some people here got hired by YYG ! when it was only not long ago some were talking trash...... the day people will use your stuff and take credit for it Sammy, you might have a different stance. How'd you like it if you worked your tits off for an extension and wanted to sell it in the MP but it was stolen because someone used it in their games and figured it was there visible in plain view in the temp folder lol! maybe you don't mind, but some people are strong on principles. I pay motherfucking money to buy their software, I didn't steal / pirate it so I expect my shite not to be stolen or for YYG to facilitate and make so damn easy !!! I know that nothing is fool proof but at least make it challenging/hard for the cunts out there to scam you !!! Regarding the 1 exe vs. multi files, I can't believe what I'm reading, I'm in shock... there are many advantages to wanting to keep all aspects of your game in many files over 1 exe....... Take many commercial games, you will see proof of that. When there are updates to a game at least you don't have to download the entire fucking game, but only the necessary files get updated........ Imagine you release a good game and break your game assets and levels into multi files like any commercial game, now imagine you want to add levels, update a level, fix some bugs, etc...would you rather tell your users, hey download my wank 600mb EXE file or hey, download this 5MB patch ! Come on now....... Sure I agree, small games is a different story, but we should be given the choice damn it ! let's say I make a huge adventure games with lots of CG, video, etc, do you really think Harry and Samual that I will release a 1GB EXE LMAO! that is crazy if you think so, but currently with GMS you are stuck, but hey maybe YYG thought most people would make Catch the Fucks type of games. ENIGMA is the lesser of 2 evils atm, sure there are pros to me using GMS, but there are pros to me using ENIGMA, I guess I have to compromise somewhere. If I can find an alternative to sound_add that supports mp3, I can work from there and code my own extensions.
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 08:34:32 pm by Darkstar2 »
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Darkstar2
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Reply #33 Posted on: April 06, 2015, 08:36:39 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1238
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Keeping resources in the .exe or externally is not really the discussion we were having. It's the imaginary sense of "security", that for some bizarre reason is so important. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. Like if you .exe is more than 50mb, then you should think of something else as the loading times are usually proportional (even if you don't load the resources at start, Windows might do some caching magic and load the whole thing at startup anyway). On the other hand for small games (less than those 50mb) I find external files unnecessary. I hate when I download a 10mb program and it has only 5 images, all of them external and some other useless files as well. I fell that they could of been inside it. That is what I love about GM and ENIGMA - for most games and programs I make I only need to distribute one file.
Harri it is proper to release in several files, if you want one files you can pack your files into an self installer (one of many) and distribute this 1 file. Then when you have an update, you can use a patcher type program and distribute only necessary files to your clients, and not have to ask them to download the whole thing.
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Darkstar2
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Reply #34 Posted on: April 06, 2015, 08:46:44 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
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DS2 i understand being paranoid but piracy and asset stripping is impossible to prevent and easy or not its still easy for just about any convinced hacker. It doesnt require hacking either, look at software media extractors they scan an exe for images sound video some docs flash and other media appended, and with no programming knowledge using user friendly (usually freeware) software to do this in minutes
LOL you just proved my point then, sure if they were appended to EXE yeah..... I tell you what when I find some time (in between the eating, sleeping, wanking, and work) I will set up an example and I will let you have fun to TRY to rip my file.....deal ? without a tutorial and extract shit from your favorite AAA game, so how an indie like yourself could do any better is out of the question why try if it wont prevent much even if you were nintendo or EA games? The new Sims by EA Games has already had its models and textures ripped and you can import your own
lol - you'd be surprised of how many commercial games are not protected or done so correctly....most companies put more emphasis on their fucked up DRM they know can be easily cracked rather than encryption of their assets - sure eventually people will figure out how to decrypt your shite, but only if you use the same algorithm....what I plan to do is something that is not done by many company, even less, not a single commercial game....but anyhow, like I said, you just are inspiring me that's all.....I'll let you and Harri have fun cracking my example. when and if you do, then if it tooks lots of efforts and time, it will be job well done....otherwise I will re-work my strategy. models too in the game last i checked with a variety of trainers made by amateur programmers and hackers.
It's a joke how some companies lay out their files in the oppen, it's as if some game companies are begging for people to steal assets from them, this should not even be a discussion it is fairly easy to rip most games out there, like I said these companies are focusing on other priorities, if they get stolen from they have lawyers and millions of $, not the poor motherfuckers like us. The only thing "hard" to extract (or in this case decompiled or disasembled) from a game is the original c++ or whatever language used's code files or workspace. It is doable with that too but that is reasonably (but still far from entirely) safe when
Ok, when I'm done with my example I will let you go at it and try to rip it and crack it....and please stop reminding me of vram ripping, memory ripping I know and am aware of all that, this is covered
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TheExDeus
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Reply #35 Posted on: April 07, 2015, 05:28:30 am |
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1860
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Again you missed the point ! Think of developers who release their shite in the MarketPlace, and SELL IT !!! Let's say for example you buy it and use it in your game........GUESS WHAT, the person who will run your game will have that DLL extracted in the temp folder ! THIS MEANS that anybody playing your game could steal your extension (the one you worked your tits off for and SELL!) and use it........This was reported to me by more than 1 developer on the MP!!! People on Unreal4 marketplace sell models and textures. And you know what? You can open any Unreal4 game that use these models and textures and rip them. Same with Source engine or any other. Nobody CARES that their assets can be ripped - if you sell something then it means you have a stricter copyright law on your side. If someone uses something you didn't permit, then you can go to court with that person. And that is the reason why nobody does that. If people use the ripped assets for a game, then they usually release it for free, and in that case the person making the assets couldn't care less, as nobody gained any monetary value from that. That is why all the Mario clones and so on are permitted. Anyway, I agree that people should be given a choice. But this choice is usually only given if you have a full access to source code (like ENIGMA) or if the engine is low enough level. For example, Unreal4 has it's own asset packaging system, which you cannot modify without changing the source of Unreal4 itself. If you want to pack all your assets in the exe you cannot do that, there is no such choice. The same with Source, Unity or Blizzard's engines. They all have their own way to store resources and you cannot make your own "crypted" version. That is why you can get their resources so easy, because someone needs to create one tool and every game made by that engine can be a target. Something like when the GM decompiler was a thing. So ENIGMA and GM has the luxury of giving you the choice, but as ENIGMA is the only one you can modify yourself, then this luxury extends mostly to it. Harri it is proper to release in several files, if you want one files you can pack your files into an self installer (one of many) and distribute this 1 file. Then when you have an update, you can use a patcher type program and distribute only necessary files to your clients, and not have to ask them to download the whole thing. But as I said I was talking about small programs. Something that weighs less than 50mb (though this is quite arbitrary) should only have auto-update for convince. I know that many people years ago were posting ragefully on YYG, because in some Australian desert they have very bad DSL and cannot download anything larger than 3mb. But cmon, if we take that as the common denominator, then we wouldn't have any digital distribution platforms. Most people can get cheap net that is fast these days (I pay 22Eur for 250mbit optical to the house, but my country is an exception) and I wouldn't even mind downloading a 3GB patch (like some Ubisoft games are known to have) in 5min. I don't support that either of course, but I don't see that as a major problem. It's "good practice" vs "good enough practice".
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« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 05:30:39 am by TheExDeus »
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Darkstar2
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Reply #37 Posted on: May 11, 2015, 11:15:58 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1238
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That is why all the Mario clones and so on are permitted.
They are NOT. Whether for non profit or commercial, you cannot RIP assets from games and use them without written permission. Some companies are more lenient and allow fan games, videos, etc, like LucasArts, others are not and they enforce their rights. To my knowledge, Nintendo does NOT allow use of their assets, whether free or not, without their consent. There is precedent about companies going against fan games (FREE), perhaps you are not aware. Not everyone has time to go to court and run after every kid who steals your bloody assets - so if you can protect them or make it harder why not......WHY NOT - that's my motto.... WHY NOT Your arguments are limited at best, what about people developing DLLs in market place and selling them, what about the fact these are in FREE view in the temp folder, which means anybody running a game made with such extensions can STEAL them and use them without paying...... Special Agent J. C. also known as Lonewolf, made me aware of this.....If someone were to use his video engine to make a game and distribute game, any cunt can simply take a look in their temp folder and steal his bloody engine and use it without paying for it!!! You'd be happy with that Harry ? But this choice is usually only given if you have a full access to source code (like ENIGMA) or if the engine is low enough level. For example, Unreal4 has it's own asset packaging system, which you cannot modify without changing the source of Unreal4
Actually one could pull this off with GMS using GML and making use of the add functions but YYG fucked sound_add in the arse anyway, so with a mixture of clever GML and extensions you CAN do that in GMS no need for the source code. I'd really HATE to see the fucking source code of that trite engine to be honest, it must be mess, yeah the mess YYG inherited but nonetheless, they duct taped it like crazy, and I have a feeling GMS2 will not be the complete rewrite people had hoped, it's probably just more duct taping, a new IDE, native platform support for IDE and some new functionality. itself. If you want to pack all your assets in the exe you cannot do that, there is no such choice. <
Who the bloody hell would want to do that ? It might be convenient for small games I agree, but for larger games no way. Most commercial games use external assets, some pack them, some protect them, but they are external. Every game I have owned and run had external assets. On big games when you want to distribute only fixed to specific area (levels, gfx, etc) add stuff, you would want to break your game into as many pieces as possible......otherwise for most games you'd have to download the entire bloody game to update just a few items. That would be silly. ENIGMA and GM has the luxury of giving you the choice, but as ENIGMA is the only one you can modify yourself, then this luxury extends mostly to it.
Unfortunately ENIGMA has its limits and flaws and right now painfully unstable (IDE part). convince. I know that many people years ago were posting ragefully on YYG, because in some Australian desert they have very bad DSL and cannot download anything larger than 3mb. But cmon, if we take that as the common denominator, then we wouldn't have any digital distribution platforms.
People STILL complain now, some consider EXE larger than 2MB to be too big... But yeah you keep forgetting the target audience for KinderGartenStudio (new name for GMS lol!). Of course if you are going to make a 1 level catch the shitty clown, 3 sprite, 1 sound, yeah would be kinda silly to have external files. Most people can get cheap net that is fast these days (I pay 22Eur for 250mbit optical to the house, but my country is an exception) and I wouldn't even mind downloading a 3GB patch
lol - I really hope there is no such game that has 3GB patches! Though I have downloaded 1GB patches before but they were probably some mix of DLC in it.
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TheExDeus
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Reply #38 Posted on: May 12, 2015, 03:38:38 am |
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Joined: Apr 2008
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They are NOT. Whether for non profit or commercial, you cannot RIP assets from games and use them without written permission. Some companies are more lenient and allow fan games, videos, etc, like LucasArts, others are not and they enforce their rights. To my knowledge, Nintendo does NOT allow use of their assets, whether free or not, without their consent. There is precedent about companies going against fan games (FREE), perhaps you are not aware. Not everyone has time to go to court and run after every kid who steals your bloody assets - so if you can protect them or make it harder why not......WHY NOT - that's my motto.... WHY NOT Game clone doesn't necessarily mean 1:1 ripped assets. You can be "inspired" by them. Take the assets, recreate them with slight modifications and use them. I have not seen any free game that has been in any legal trouble. That just doesn't happen. And if you want to use the assets directly, you must ask the user to get the game (like Stargus which is Starcraft clone). Here is a good list of clones: http://osgameclones.com/ . And as far as I know none of them have been in any real copyright problem. Special Agent J. C. also known as Lonewolf, made me aware of this.....If someone were to use his video engine to make a game and distribute game, any cunt can simply take a look in their temp folder and steal his bloody engine and use it without paying for it!!! You'd be happy with that Harry ? I wouldn't care one bit. But getting the .dll doesn't allow one to use it. You have to reverse engineer the whole interface. If it was so trivial, then everyone would be using BINK video in their games instead of some Lonewolf video engine. And even then BINK wouldn't care, as if the persons don't sell the game (or get any monetary gain from it), then 99% of companies don't do anything. As suing and then paying a lot of money for lawyers and things like that is a waste. And people who can reverse engineer the dll, then they are competent enough to get the dll out of the game anyway even if you encrypt it. Who the bloody hell would want to do that ? It might be convenient for small games I agree, but for larger games no way. Most commercial games use external assets, some pack them, some protect them, but they are external. Every game I have owned and run had external assets. On big games when you want to distribute only fixed to specific area (levels, gfx, etc) add stuff, you would want to break your game into as many pieces as possible......otherwise for most games you'd have to download the entire bloody game to update just a few items. That would be silly. But that is the point of GM. GM games are usually very small, they are self-contained. GM is the go-to engine for things like LudumDare where you have 48h to make something. I hate that I download a 5mb game and it consists of 25 files. At the same time if you WANT to have everything external you can. All I'm saying is that it should be a choice. Unreal doesn't have that, GM has it partially. ENIGMA has it fully. Unfortunately ENIGMA has its limits and flaws and right now painfully unstable (IDE part). But the best part is that you can extend the limits and fix the flaws. I have fixed many bugs and implemented a lot of very interesting features in the past two-three months. When I have more free time I will try to make a topic about them. IDE part is a soar point though, and something I sadly cannot change. If we are not able to get any Java dev's on Windows, then we will sadly have to ditch LGM. And as I am not part of NaturalGM either, then I will have to start something from scratch. Which is something I'm not a big fan of.
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« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 03:40:44 am by TheExDeus »
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Darkstar2
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Reply #41 Posted on: May 12, 2015, 11:59:41 pm |
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Joined: Jan 2014
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Game clone doesn't necessarily mean 1:1 ripped assets. You can be "inspired" by them. Take the assets, recreate them with slight modifications and use them.
No Harri, there is a provision for a Similarity. I could re-create a PAC MAN game with my own assets and sprites with a different sprites going in a maze and eating apples. If a game is too similar to another, that is also grounds for a game company to go after you, and PAC MAN is the good example of that. Of course you cannot copyright a concept and type of a game. I believe the term is called substantial similarity. I have not seen any free game that has been in any legal trouble. That just doesn't happen.
Many have , they just never went to court, because usually a company will send a S&D and most people comply Also just because no people get in trouble does not mean it's ok, companies have rights at their disposal, they can use to enforce it or ignore it for certain cases. I wouldn't care one bit. But getting the .dll doesn't allow one to use it. You have to reverse engineer the whole interface. If it was so trivial, then everyone would be using BINK video in their games instead of some Lonewolf video engine.
lol, the original DLL is there in plain view, all you would need is to get the functions, that you could probably find posted by some online.....Also BINK video is comparing apples and oranges, I'm going to eventually buy lone's engine, the fact you can use video as an object and blend it with actual sprites is brilliant...Too bad one cannot use it in ENIGMA. And even then BINK wouldn't care, as if the persons don't sell the game (or get any monetary gain from it), then
lol there is a FREE version with splash screen before and after your videos, so you'd have to get a pirated version of the licensed release - and they WOULD care, piracy is illegal, whether you use it FREE or for profit. If you were in front of a judge the "your honour I did not gain any profits from this ......." would not hold in any court of law...... But that is the point of GM. GM games are usually very small, they are self-contained. GM is the go-to engine for things like LudumDare where you have 48h to make something. I hate that I download a 5mb game and it consists of 25 files. At the same time if you WANT to have everything external you can. All I'm saying is that it should be a choice.
LOL exactly my point, So you seem to imply that GM is for small games, i guess people are really not pushing the limits right ? A clever coder could as easily use GMS to make a complete MYST like game, if they used the right combination of extensions and proper coding. GM does not have to be limited to the small kiddies games. I have the skill and know-how to make immensely interactive games, MYST type, etc, but I lack the artistic skill. GMS is poor at handling large games, it's been said since day fucking 1 on the GMC, but that was assuming you loaded all your assets in the IDE..... but using external resources you can make a game as big as you want, loading only necessary assets as needed. Unreal doesn't have that, GM has it partially. ENIGMA has it fully.
Actually GM originally had FULL support for that, but once they started deprecating functions that changed. But with extensions you could probably pull that off. ENIGMA fully, yes, that's great, but there is lots still broken unfortunately. GMS has gone miles to fix many things add more duct tape to its product to give the impression that they fixed things, but in terms of stability and speed what a big motherfucking difference GMS is next to GM6. so it has gone a long way But the best part is that you can extend the limits and fix the flaws.
I WOULD if I COULD, JAVA is not my thing IDE part is a soar point though, and something I sadly cannot change. If we are not able to get any Java dev's on Windows, then we will sadly have to ditch LGM. And as I am not part of NaturalGM either, then I will have to start something from scratch. Which is something I'm not a big fan of.
But if you ditch LGM, then how the bloody hell are we supposed to develop using ENIGMA
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TheExDeus
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Reply #42 Posted on: May 13, 2015, 05:47:52 am |
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Joined: Apr 2008
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I'm just saying there hasn't been a case that I know of that a company sues a freeware game. There are wolfeinstein clones, worms clones, pac-man clones, terraria clones etc. etc. Nobody has ever been in any trouble. What IS illegal is to claim rights to something you don't own. As well as break licenses, which is actually much more important when using freeware stuff. Like there was an instance when free Linux utilities were sold, which ended in a lawsuit, as that broke the license. On the other hand there is instances where people sell open source games (like the flight simulator) and it's perfectly legal because of the license (but of course it is immoral). Basically what I am trying to say to you is that you WILL NOT BE SUED BY A GAMES COMPANY IF YOU MAKE A FREE REMAKE OF IT - that is a fact. You can make a million pacman clones, especially with your own graphics and release them for free and you will never be in any legal problems. i guess people are really not pushing the limits right ? You don't even need extensions for that. I have made whole Diablo2 remakes in pure GM, and I can assure you that 2D wise it can create any game imaginable. 3D is another story (at least before GMS) as you couldn't write shaders and you still cannot optimize the renderer yourself. But if you ditch LGM, then how the bloody hell are we supposed to develop using ENIGMA My idea is to write one myself. I will start with writing some tools, like GUI editors.
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TheExDeus
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Reply #44 Posted on: May 14, 2015, 05:14:52 am |
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Joined: Apr 2008
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A company can send C&D and even sue anyone they like, but from legal standpoint clones are legal at best, and in "gray area" at worst. They are certainly not illegal. U.S. copyright on games (board games though, but it should still apply) - http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html. And some old discussion on SO - http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/1653/how-closely-can-a-game-legally-resemble-another . This mentions some good points about copyright and trademark. Copyright can be broken if you take something directly (like you don't make your own circle with a triangle mouth), while trademarks are about names and IP (which has to be registered). For example, the open source Starcraft clone had some problems from Blizzard because it had "craft" in its name, not because it cloned the gameplay. Same with some pacman clones. For examples, an Android version of pacman named "Super Pac" was C&D by Namco, not because it was almost a 100% clone of pacman, but because it had the "Pac" in its name. I think the legal logic there is not necessarily to protect IP or trademarks, but to protect the customers. If you have a name very similar to an original IP, then you can trick the customers in believing it's made by the same company. And when clone sucks, the company gains bad reputation because of this misdirection. Of course Namco will attack you if you make 100% clone just redrawing all your GFX, but it doesn't mean that legally they are on the high ground. They might win, they might not. Most people (like you too I suppose) just take the "safe road" and remove anything with C&D. But that doesn't mean that you were doing anything illegal. There is a shit ton of C&D stuff going on in YouTube and I'd say 90% of them are without merit. Look into TotalBiscuit or AngryJoe about C&D that backfired for the game dev's and more discussion about it (like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfgoDDh4kE0).
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