ENIGMA Forums

General fluff => Off-Topic => Topic started by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 12:47:10 am

Title: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 12:47:10 am
Hi Guys,

Is there anything stopping someone (ok me..) from creating an ENIGMA fork as long as all (fork) source code is kept available to the public, yadda, yadda, yadda?

Just seems that the Admin hierachy (anarchy? :)) have a totally different vision of the future (or lack thereof) for ENIGMA to what I have. I am obviously a nobody and have no real say as to what the future should be for ENIGMA on this site, and fair enough I respect that.  (Y)

So, the question is can I say 'fork it' and mould ENIGMA to suit my vision (and make the original ENIGMA project look like the retard first cousin or something)? LOL :)

Love to hear your thoughts. :)
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: TheExDeus on September 28, 2014, 06:18:23 am
It's GPL licensed right now, so you can make a fork and do what you wish. The only thing you must do is allow us to merge features you implement in your fork. Whether we will do it or not depends on us.

And as any open source project I think we all encourage people to fork. But seeing as nothing forbids you to actually develop in the master, then I don't really see a point. Your "vision" will probably not be more sophisticated as our "add features till it bursts when we need them".
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 07:12:25 am
Your "vision" will probably not be more sophisticated as our "add features till it bursts when we need them".

The vision is not contained to the mere source code ;)
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: onpon on September 28, 2014, 07:13:34 am
The only thing you must do is allow us to merge features you implement in your fork.

That's an over-simplification of the requirements of the GNU GPL. It suggests that many forbidden activities are allowed, and it suggests that redistribution in the first place is required when it isn't.

What you actually must do, in a nutshell, is: if you distribute your modified version of ENIGMA to anyone, it must be under the GNU GPL version 3 or later (you must keep intact license notices and give them a copy of the GNU GPL), and you must provide full source code to any recipient of a binary at no additional charge.

You might want to read the text of the GNU GPL, and you might want to look at this FAQ:

https://gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Aegar on September 28, 2014, 07:29:11 am
https://tldrlegal.com/license/gnu-general-public-license-v3-(gpl-3)
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 07:42:24 am
Just reading through the GPL license FAQ now.

Seems like a massive mess of contradictions and double talk.

Makes closed source more attractive, the more that I read it...
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Josh @ Dreamland on September 28, 2014, 09:09:18 am
Closed-source forking is allowed, but only until a binary release is made public. At that point, you must provide an identically-licensed source bundle to build any binary distributions. This bundle does not have to include your entire development history, but it does have to be human-readable (not minimized, not obfuscated).

By the sounds of it, a fork is not what you want, anyway; it sounds as though what you want is to run your own ENIGMA community (or rather, a community for a fork of ENIGMA). You can try to do that, but I suspect that you will have at most half as many active users as we do—sort of like the Ubuntu and Mint communities. Meanwhile, if your code actually contains modifications that give you an edge, we'll be bombarded with bug reports about general commentary about it, which will be annoying.

I also suspect you'll find that a community whose only facet is stricter moderation run by people less qualified to provide support for the actual software behind the community is, in fact, less likely to draw a crowd. But I could be wrong.

That said, if nothing else, then as a public demonstration of the principles we have already discussed in action, I'd encourage you to go ahead and fork the project.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: onpon on September 28, 2014, 09:52:34 am
contradictions and double talk.

Like what?
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 11:58:10 am
Just reading through the GPL license FAQ now.

Seems like a massive mess of contradictions and double talk.

Makes closed source more attractive, the more that I read it...

LOL ! and you just discovered this now lonewolff ? :P   

to address Josh's points:

You can try to do that, but I suspect that you will have at most half as many active users as we do

It depends, a significantly better product or different product might attract a crowd.  Given the fact that it was said to me that nearly 99% of the GMC are kids/pre-teens, I could see why people have attachment to GM :D  so perhaps a new product, nothing to do with GM, but same ease of use, might attract a different crowd, it all depends on the person running the site.

Quote
I also suspect you'll find that a community whose only facet is stricter moderation run by people less qualified to provide support for the actual software behind the community is, in fact, less likely to draw a crowd. But I could be wrong.

Excellent point there, who better to get support from, than the original development team, especially when you are working with the same code base.  Good point there Josh.  Though I disagree with you about the moderation part.....It all depends on your level of moderation.  There is a difference between a forum mod by trigger happy kids and stuck up admins, and PROPER moderation - believe it or not it IS possible to be very lenient BUT draw the line on what is acceptable and what  cannot be crossed.

Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: onpon on September 28, 2014, 04:22:19 pm
LOL ! and you just discovered this now lonewolff ? :P

Seriously, please enlighten me: what "contradictions and double talk" do you see in the GNU GPL FAQ?
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 06:28:28 pm
LOL ! and you just discovered this now lonewolff ? :P

Seriously, please enlighten me: what "contradictions and double talk" do you see in the GNU GPL FAQ?

This one is a kicker (and contradicts what I have been saying to DS2 via PM all along. Seems he is right.

Quote

I'm writing a Windows application with Microsoft Visual C++ (or Visual Basic) and I will be releasing it under the GPL. Is dynamically linking my program with the Visual C++ (or Visual Basic) runtime library permitted under the GPL? (#WindowsRuntimeAndGPL)


You may link your program to these libraries, and distribute the compiled program to others. When you do this, the runtime libraries are “System Libraries” as GPLv3 defines them. That means that you don't need to worry about including their source code with the program's Corresponding Source. GPLv2 provides a similar exception in section 3.

You may not distribute these libraries in compiled DLL form with the program. To prevent unscrupulous distributors from trying to use the System Library exception as a loophole, the GPL says that libraries can only qualify as System Libraries as long as they're not distributed with the program itself. If you distribute the DLLs with the program, they won't be eligible for this exception anymore; then the only way to comply with the GPL would be to provide their source code, which you are unable to do.

It is possible to write free programs that only run on Windows, but it is not a good idea. These programs would be “trapped” by Windows, and therefore contribute zero to the Free World.

From this it seems if I have a closed source DLL that interfaces with ENIGMA at runtime (and gets distributed as part of the end compliled game that someone makes), It then forces my closed source 'plug-in' to become open source.

If so, that is crazy talk....

Consider this:

I make a dll extension for GM:S. ENIGMA is an Open Source clone of GM:S. Someone realises my DLL will work in ENIGMA. They package my DLL with their project (which is fine by me). Suddenly my DLL is required to be GPL3 because of ENIGMA, even though the intention of the DLL was never for ENIGMA in the first place (even though I strongly encourage the use of my DLL in ENIGMA).

Crazy shit right there! No way the GPL can change the license of my DLL just because my DLL works with ENIGMA. I'd happily take that one to court any day of the week. (Even though I encorage people to use my extensions in ENIGMA).
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: onpon on September 28, 2014, 07:00:46 pm
Quote
From this it seems if I have a closed source DLL that interfaces with ENIGMA at runtime (and gets distributed as part of the end compliled game that someone makes), It then forces my closed source 'plug-in' to become open source.

Huh? Your interpretation is utterly nonsensical. Nowhere in the answer is it even remotely implied that proprietary plugins "become open source". It says that if you distribute a DLL with your program, it doesn't qualify as a system library anymore and is therefore not exempt from the terms of the GNU GPL. So if you can't distribute the source code of the DLL under the terms of the GNU GPL, it simply isn't allowed.

Quote
I make a dll extension for GM:S. ENIGMA is an Open Source clone of GM:S. Someone realises my DLL will work in ENIGMA. They package my DLL with their project (which is fine by me). Suddenly my DLL is required to be GPL3 because of ENIGMA, even though the intention of the DLL was never for ENIGMA in the first place (even though I strongly encourage the use of my DLL in ENIGMA).

No, you're talking nonsense again. This hypothetical person you're talking about simply isn't allowed to do what you described, because it's a violation of the terms of the GNU GPL. Specifically, it's infringing the copyright of the ENIGMA developers.

Again, this nonsensical assumption you're making isn't even remotely implied in the GNU GPL FAQ.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 07:19:03 pm
How is this nonsense?
And how is this not allowed?
Who is going enforce this?
Who is liable?

GPL/GNU sounds like utter bullshit.

So TKG, is allready violating all of this crap by having his extensions of the GMS marketplace (as his entensions work with ENIGMA).

Is GameMaker: Studio now suddenly forced to be open source, because his extensions 'work with' ENIGMA?

So, what you are saying - look at ENIGMA sideways and your life is open source or I am of risk of being dragged through court for rules that any sane human would laugh at?

[edit]
Let me ask in simple terms. Incase I am not understanding correctly.

Someone creates a game in ENIGMA, they use a 3rd party closed source DLL as part of their project. What happens? Has the law been broken?
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 07:40:59 pm
[hey DS2 you pulled your post? Hanging me out to dry you bastard!  :D]

Quote from: Darkstar2
This whole mass shit is ridiculous, then who the hell wold want to develop things for ENIGMA ? essentially this means that if you use or develop for ENIGMA you have to share your source, you can't get around this......this would make it impossible for putting these said plugins in the market.....it would also mean someone would be able to modify the ENIGMA plugin to work with GMS......is this a fucked in the arse if you do fucked in the arse if you don't scenario or are we simply retarded and not understand the license because I agree with lone, there is so much legalise and so much ambiguity.  And I reckon ages ago I was told that if I did not want to be sued to just stop using ENIGMA, I think it is a farce, now it's all about who's going to sue !  Robert made it clear he has no time nor Josh to go after users, however keeping in mind there are other past contributors that could go after anybody.
So basically this is it.

FREE comes with a price, you DONATE your hard work and efforts, whether you make plugins or games, you have to distribute your source.......so want to sell your shite for money ? good luck because anybody can simply take your source and distribute it FREE.

Welcome to OPEN SOURCE lonewolff.

Maybe ENIGMA's biggest downfall is not the forum/community but its fucked up license and this fucked up GNU that fucks developers in the arse with a long stick.  Sure ENIGMA devs need protection, but what about developers using ENIGMA ?  If I spend 1 bloody year making a plugin that works with ENIGMA, 3rd party, 100% my code, and I want to make some money, I have to release the source so some cunt can distribute my hard efforts FREE ? WOW.

Who the FUCK in their right mind would want to contribute to ENIGMA, let alone use ENIGMA or write plugins for it.......This is RUBBISH.

And to top it all off, Josh is shit scared that a previous dev might sue him for copyright should they decide to retract their work. Hence, this licence thread Josh has been tearing his hear out about all of these years.

I mean WTF?

Scrap ENIGMA start again, and set out your own licence in your own text. I can't see how GPL can stand up in court, seriously...

Has anyone tested it in court? A judge would shake his head and say 'fuck off you geeks!' - LOL
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 07:43:31 pm
Oh and the proof's in the pudding:

This sums it up:

http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-the-gpl-sucks/

http://gnusucks.wordpress.com/

http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1hcv90/antigpl_sentiment/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1379692

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5935

-------------- and it goes on and on......

So basically you CAN sell whatever you do, you can even sell ENIGMA........which in my opinion would be VERY unfair to the devs ...... and therefore ANY spit that comes out of ENIGMA that you make ALSO has to abide by the same principles, release your source.
Basically this form of license does not protect but encourages theft, infringement and invalidating the hard efforts and work from developers and 3rd party devs.

Maybe we are retarded or something but what the bloody hell good would be for anybody to develop extensions or plugins to ENIGMA ?
I guess this topic is a GOOD reason why ENIGMA needs an exception A.S.A.P covering 3rd party plugins and user developed content/games, etc, whilst protecting ENIGMA's source.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: onpon on September 28, 2014, 07:46:46 pm
And how is this not allowed?

You don't even know about copyright law and you're making assertions about it? Really?

Quote
Who is going enforce this?

The copyright holder, obviously.

Quote
Someone creates a game in ENIGMA, they use a 3rd party closed source DLL as part of their project. What happens? Has the law been broken?

I already answered your question:

Quote from: onpon
This hypothetical person you're talking about simply isn't allowed to do what you described, because it's a violation of the terms of the GNU GPL. Specifically, it's infringing the copyright of the ENIGMA developers.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 07:48:09 pm
Oh and the proof's in the pudding:

This sums it up:

http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-the-gpl-sucks/

http://gnusucks.wordpress.com/

http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1hcv90/antigpl_sentiment/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1379692

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5935

-------------- and it goes on and on......

So basically you CAN sell whatever you do, you can even sell ENIGMA........which in my opinion would be VERY unfair to the devs ...... and therefore ANY spit that comes out of ENIGMA that you make ALSO has to abide by the same principles, release your source.
Basically this form of license does not protect but encourages theft, infringement and invalidating the hard efforts and work from developers and 3rd party devs.

Maybe we are retarded or something but what the bloody hell good would be for anybody to develop extensions or plugins to ENIGMA ?
I guess this topic is a GOOD reason why ENIGMA needs an exception A.S.A.P covering 3rd party plugins and user developed content/games, etc, whilst protecting ENIGMA's source.

Yeah, it is a farce.

Someone gets my extension from GM:S marketplace. Realizes it works in ENIGMA. I get sued (even though I had no knowledge it would work in ENIGMA - as ENIGMA is a clone of GM:S).

Sure, see you in court I say  (Y)
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 07:48:58 pm
Oh and the proof's in the pudding:

This sums it up:

http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-the-gpl-sucks/

http://gnusucks.wordpress.com/

http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1hcv90/antigpl_sentiment/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1379692

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5935

-------------- and it goes on and on......

So basically you CAN sell whatever you do, you can even sell ENIGMA........which in my opinion would be VERY unfair to the devs ...... and therefore ANY spit that comes out of ENIGMA that you make ALSO has to abide by the same principles, release your source.
Basically this form of license does not protect but encourages theft, infringement and invalidating the hard efforts and work from developers and 3rd party devs.

Maybe we are retarded or something but what the bloody hell good would be for anybody to develop extensions or plugins to ENIGMA ?
I guess this topic is a GOOD reason why ENIGMA needs an exception A.S.A.P covering 3rd party plugins and user developed content/games, etc, whilst protecting ENIGMA's source.

Yeah, it is a farce.

Someone gets my extension from GM:S marketplace. Realizes it works in ENIGMA. I get sued (even though I had no knowledge it would work in ENIGMA - as ENIGMA is a clone of GM:S).

Sure, see you in court I say  (Y)

How the fuck can I be held liable for copyright, if someone random uses my DLL in an GPL licences API?

And how is this not allowed?

You don't even know about copyright law and you're making assertions about it? Really?

This is the purpose of the topic, knobhead ;)
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: time-killer-games on September 28, 2014, 07:55:29 pm
So TKG, is allready violating all of this crap by having his extensions of the GMS marketplace (as his entensions work with ENIGMA).

Is GameMaker: Studio now suddenly forced to be open source, because his extensions 'work with' ENIGMA?
That's a negative. ENIGMA can technically call DLL's right in your system32 folder. It's not like microsoft are forced to open source their operating system because of an open source game engine clone.

On top of that. my dll's are open source and public domain so I don't get what you mean.  GameMaker:Studio has nothing to do with this discussion.

I don't know much about GPL but I can tell you might be reading it wrong, idk, just guessing based on what onpon said.


Edit. I understand why you feel uneasy but it really seems you don't need to feel that way. take it easy, it's okay. :D
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 07:57:58 pm
[hey DS2 you pulled your post? Hanging me out to dry you bastard!  :D]

LOL I didn't think you'd reply that fast, it's ok lonewolff, I deleted my post because I found links instead that pretty much sums up how some people feel that's why.

Quote
And to top it all off, Josh is shit scared that a previous dev might sue him for copyright should they decide to retract their work. Hence, this licence thread Josh has been tearing his hear out about all of these years.

Lone, ENIGMA is the work of many people, many people contributed to the code and different sections.... so anything of the sort that gets done needs consent from all parties involved.... that would go the same for closed source....... I don't know if people would really "SUE", I mean who the bloody hell would make enough money using this product to warrant that, so assuming perhaps the worst that could happen is you'd get a C&D/Take down notice to either comply or retract your infringing plugin/software.  The same way companies don't sue right away and will send you a notice first, most of the time unless there is substantial financial reason or gain.......I would assume that for most people using ENIGMA, it isn't, so I would not worry about lawsuits involving money - but a contributor CAN go after you and ask you to stop distributing your product until you are compliant, and if you continue, it means they have the RIGHT to sue you, does not mean they will, it's up to the developer........Never assume they won't.

Quote
I mean WTF?

Scrap ENIGMA start again, and set out your own licence in your own text. I can't see how GPL can stand up in court, seriously...

If it were written on stained toilet paper using spit, it would stand in court.  Because when using said software implies you read the license and agreed to them even if you didn't understand a bloody thing - law does NOT protect ignorance, and your only chance would be to prove any ambiguity but good luck with that.  It's understandable that anything using ENIGMA needs to be made available upon request (source), I understood that, where I have a big issue, and you as well, is closed sourced plugins or products / code I use would automatically be licensed under the same and need to be made available as well.  That is hard to swallow.  So some might ask us why the fuck are we still using ENIGMA ? Because for one, am not planning to retire off ENIGMA and so I don't think I will be sued anytime soon, and I already promised in writing that if I earn $10 million I would donate a dollar to each developer.....LOL.

Quote
Has anyone tested it in court? A judge would shake his head and say 'fuck off you geeks!' - LOL

Not so, it is a legal binding document that both parties agreed to.  USING software and developing using said software signifies you agree to the terms :P  The only hope is for some really good attorney to find loopholes or inconsistency with the license, with a fine comb and invoke ambiguity.  There is legal precedent in the US for cases rejected because of ambiguity claims, even when a contract was involved.

In this case there is a way to ask at the source and get an answer in writing, so ambiguity might not hold.


Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 08:06:32 pm
So TKG, is allready violating all of this crap by having his extensions of the GMS marketplace (as his entensions work with ENIGMA).

Is GameMaker: Studio now suddenly forced to be open source, because his extensions 'work with' ENIGMA?
That's a negative. ENIGMA can technically call DLL's right in your system32 folder. It's not like microsoft are forced to open source their operating system because of an open source game engine clone.

On top of that. my dll's are open source and public domain so I don't get what you mean.  GameMaker:Studio has nothing to do with this discussion.

I don't know much about GPL but I can tell you might be reading it wrong, idk, just guessing based on what onpon said.


Edit. I understand why you feel uneasy but it really seems you don't need to feel that way. take it easy, it's okay. :D

There is a system DLL exeption to the licence  (Y)
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: time-killer-games on September 28, 2014, 08:08:55 pm
well it would make sense to me whoever would try to use your DLL in enigma, THEY themselves are breaking the license NOT YOU therefore making them in trouble and meaning you still don't have to release any code..

I'll just shut up because I only read the first paragraph of the license.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 08:13:01 pm
Consider this....
 
Quote
I'm writing a Windows application with Microsoft Visual C++ (or Visual Basic) and I will be releasing it under the GPL. Is dynamically linking my program with the Visual C++ (or Visual Basic) runtime library permitted under the GPL? (#WindowsRuntimeAndGPL)

You may link your program to these libraries, and distribute the compiled program to others. When you do this, the runtime libraries are “System Libraries” as GPLv3 defines them. That means that you don't need to worry about including their source code with the program's Corresponding Source. GPLv2 provides a similar exception in section 3.

You may not distribute these libraries in compiled DLL form with the program. To prevent unscrupulous distributors from trying to use the System Library exception as a loophole, the GPL says that libraries can only qualify as System Libraries as long as they're not distributed with the program itself. If you distribute the DLLs with the program, they won't be eligible for this exception anymore; then the only way to comply with the GPL would be to provide their source code, which you are unable to do.

It is possible to write free programs that only run on Windows, but it is not a good idea. These programs would be “trapped” by Windows, and therefore contribute zero to the Free World.
How can I as a developer be bound by GPL of some clone, just because my DLL 'happens' to work with it.

Please explain that.


Another scenario.

Someone uses a DLL (legally supplied by Electronic Arts - say). They use it in ENIGMA because ENGIMA can handle DLL's. Electronic Arts is now liable because they don't agree to supply the source?

Same goes for anyone who has ever developed a DLL on the planet then...

ENIGMA is sitting on a goldmine here!


[edit] TKG Ninja'd me.

If the thrid party dev is liable, why would they use ENIGMA in the first place? Everything they do is then owned by ENIGMA.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 08:14:52 pm
Double Ninja'd, so here it is again.

If the thrid party dev is liable, why would they use ENIGMA in the first place? Everything they do is then owned by ENIGMA.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 08:24:42 pm
Consider this....
 

ENIGMA is sitting on a goldmine here!


shhhhhhhhh!  don't give them any ideas  :P

#1) Keep selling your stuff on the market and don't worry about it.  You are not violating any terms.  If your buyers are, that is their problem they will face the consequences, or they may not even face anything and very unlikely (read my long PM on why).  Just so long as you are not condoning or encouraging or doing it yourself...... Think about it this way, someone can steal your DLL, rig it, maliciously, and re-distribute it under your name on a site......Are you liable for this ?  No.  IS it a pain in the arse, YES........but this is the price you pay for releasing stuff to the public.......It's part of business.

People are violating licences all the time, laws, etc......does it mean everyone gets sued......maybe a fraction, and again read my PM......Unless there is any financial gain or anything that warrants it, you should not worry.....the licence gives the right to the respective authors to exercise their rights, whether they do or look the other way is entirely up to the holder ........

Now what is nonsense to me......You develop 3rd party, and release your plugins INDEPENDANTLY, without the binary of any game.......It is a single or set of closed source files...... A user buys it and decides to use it with compatible software.....I have a hard time understanding that your closed source now becomes open source.....I think there is a big gap and something we are not understanding.

Think of it like all the Adobe Photoshop plugins on the market.....I can use them all inside my PaintShop Pro as PSP supports adobe plugins.......am I breaking any rules?
No.

Would there be room for exceptions if your plugin is EXTERNAL to the engine and EXE compared to if it was linked to the engine and EXE?  If not, then I seriously think this is wrong.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 08:30:55 pm
Think of it like all the Adobe Photoshop plugins on the market.....I can use them all inside my PaintShop Pro as PSP supports adobe plugins.......am I breaking any rules?
No.

That is because thier licences are carefully worded. Not just a cut and paste from some GNU website. ;)

In-fact, they encourage this as it gives their product more market foothold :)

I have PM'd Josh now anyway to see if he is willing to allow the distribution of 3rd party closed souce 'DLL plugins' with 'creations' made by ENIGMA.

If he says 'yep, sounds fair', I run wild with ENIGMA and do everything I can to make it a beast.

If the answer is 'nope', we part ways. No harm done :)

Ball is in his court :)

It'd be ludicrous to say no. But, we shall see.  (Y)

[edit]
I am beginning to understand the GPL license thing though. As it stands, a developer cant use a 3rd party DLL with ENIGMA unless it shares the same licence.

Still seems GPL is a wierd choice. It actually 'hampers' day to day users, more than it gives them freedom.

Seems counter-intuitive.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 08:37:29 pm
It's very likely you would be told to do as you please that they don't care, perhaps you should go at the source higher up, responsible for drafting the license used by ENIGMA.

OR you can contribute to ENIGMA as an open source project, like other people do.

Though I can see why some people would want to develop certain plugins as closed source....There are certain things that I would too...... If they refuse such an opportunity then they should not wonder why it's hard to find contributors to ENIGMA and what pushes people away.......is it the community or is it the bloody licence that most people don't like (I could come up with several more links with negative comments).

Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 08:42:13 pm
[keep ninja'ing me dude]
I am beginning to understand the GPL license thing though. As it stands, a developer cant use a 3rd party DLL with ENIGMA unless it shares the same licence.

Still seems GPL is a wierd choice. It actually 'hampers' day to day users, more than it gives them freedom.

Seems counter-intuitive.


@DS2 - With respect to going higher up. Who is higher up than Josh? Are 'we' (day to day devs who use ENIGMA, I mean) still not covered even if Josh gives the go ahead?


(Two days, I have been trying to figure all of this out now - LOL. This all hinges on whether I choose to develop for ENIGMA or not. Sure there'll be parts I contribute directly to the ENIGMA source, but there are elements I still want to be closed source - hence 'external DLL plug-in' to extend ENIGMA)
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 08:51:51 pm
Your best bet is to wait to hear from the developers of ENIGMA themselves.

2) Or chance it and worse case be warned to take down your plugins and stop distributing them...... For the reasons stated to you i'd take option #2.  Besides, as I explained, even you are bound by open source, nothing prevents you to SELL your plugin.  Look what they did with FlightGear, an open sourced flight sim, some people took it, slightly modded it and called it FlightSimPro and sell it on ClickBank.......Nothing prevents you from making a profit from your plugin or ENIGMA made game.......Someone might distribute your plugin mod it etc, but think of it this way, nothing prevents you from doing the same and taking someone's plugin, modding it and selling it.......This is what I was told ages ago, am I right devs? So a shitty situation can be turned into a win-win-win in the end......it all comes down to whether you are willing or not to contribute to an open source project, with its pros and cons.    The same way nothing prevents anybody from competing with you in the market place and releasing a video engine similar to yours, FREE.....it is their right.......but then you make one better and sell it...... and you take the SAME opportunity and right that is available to you, given your skill and smarts you should have no problem with this.......For less experienced devs, that might be more frustrating .


Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 08:55:56 pm
Aren't half of the developers either AWOL or dead now?  ;)

This whole topic seems a nightmare. I am sorry I posted it - LOL.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 09:00:17 pm
Aren't half of the developers either AWOL or dead now?  ;)

This whole topic seems a nightmare. I am sorry I posted it - LOL.

Many left because of disagreements with the project and others, or could not care less or for other reasons, you can't assume they are dead :D

don't  feel sorry for posting, you bring lively topics to this forum, :D  at least we are talking about important stuff on the future of ENIGMA so what can be better.  Just be patient and wait to see what actual developers have to say about this. :D

Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: onpon on September 28, 2014, 09:18:36 pm
Yeah, it is a farce.

Someone gets my extension from GM:S marketplace. Realizes it works in ENIGMA. I get sued (even though I had no knowledge it would work in ENIGMA - as ENIGMA is a clone of GM:S).

There you go again, making a preposterous assertion because you don't understand how copyright and licenses work and paradoxically think that makes you an expert on the topic. This is not a complex idea, but until you get your head out of your ass, you're never going to understand it.

No. When this hypothetical person links your proprietary DLL with ENIGMA, that doesn't mean you're violating the license. How could you possibly believe that you are? You aren't even distributing ENIGMA. The hypothetical person is. They are the one in violation of the GNU GPL.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 09:22:08 pm
Yeah, it is a farce.

Someone gets my extension from GM:S marketplace. Realizes it works in ENIGMA. I get sued (even though I had no knowledge it would work in ENIGMA - as ENIGMA is a clone of GM:S).

There you go again, making a preposterous assertion because you don't understand how copyright and licenses work and paradoxically think that makes you an expert on the topic. This is not a complex idea, but until you get your head out of your ass, you're never going to understand it.

No. When this hypothetical person links your proprietary DLL with ENIGMA, that doesn't mean you're violating the license. How could you possibly believe that you are? You aren't even distributing ENIGMA. The hypothetical person is. They are the one in violation of the GNU GPL.

Someone is clearly not reading posts...

Here was one of my previous statements:

Quote
I am beginning to understand the GPL license thing though. As it stands, a developer cant use a 3rd party DLL with ENIGMA unless it shares the same licence.

So, I am agreeing with you....

Either way, I still think that this licence is not suitable for the ENIGMA project. Unless you want everyone to be 100% open source, all hold hands, and rub each others dicks. If that is the case, then yeah - choice of licence is spot on  (Y)


[edit]
Josh just got back to me. Seems there won't be a problem. So, happy days :)

Forward we go. Onpon, you can suck my dick BTW ;) (LOL - J/K, I'd never allow you to do that ;)).
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Goombert on September 28, 2014, 09:57:49 pm
Quote
Many left because of disagreements with the project and others, or could not care less or for other reasons, you can't assume they are dead
Actually, noone has left because of disagreements. IsmAvatar left, but didn't really, because she has work. Polygonz left because he has a girlfriend or w/e and he still stops in. fundies left because he's bored and thinks he knows C++ now. I can't think of any contributor that left because of a disagreement of dispute. A2h left because he had other things to do, he came back a while ago and Josh discussed his new website design. Rusky is back after a year in moron church service.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 10:04:08 pm

No. When this hypothetical person links your proprietary DLL with ENIGMA, that doesn't mean you're violating the license. How could you possibly believe that you are? You aren't even distributing ENIGMA. The hypothetical person is. They are the one in violation of the GNU GPL.

That's what I've been telling him.  If you run a shop and someone comes in your store and steals your shite are you, the store owner going to be accused of a crime ? Same thing.  If that were the case then there would be a big problem and a lot of people would end up sued :D
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 10:05:36 pm
Quote
Many left because of disagreements with the project and others, or could not care less or for other reasons, you can't assume they are dead
Actually, noone has left because of disagreements. IsmAvatar left, but didn't really, because she has work. Polygonz left because he has a girlfriend or w/e and he still stops in. fundies left because he's bored and thinks he knows C++ now. I can't think of any contributor that left because of a disagreement of dispute. A2h left because he had other things to do, he came back a while ago and Josh discussed his new website design. Rusky is back after a year in moron church service.

What about cheesesnob ? I seem to recall people bashing the ENIGMA project and leaving......

Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Goombert on September 28, 2014, 10:12:23 pm
cheeseboy is fundies

There may have been someone doing that but they were probably never a regular here anyway.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 10:13:44 pm
That's what I've been telling him.  If you run a shop and someone comes in your store and steals your shite are you, the store owner going to be accused of a crime ? Same thing.  If that were the case then there would be a big problem and a lot of people would end up sued :D

Law is pretty screwy though. I remember a case in over here in Australia years ago. This is what happend;

A burgular broke in to someones home by smashing a window. When he climbed through the window he became severly injured. He later sued the owner of the house for sustaining an injury from the broken glass. The burgular was awarded hundreds of thousands of dollars.

There was another one recently which was even more stupid. But, I'll save that story for another day :)
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 10:16:41 pm
OK I'll tell you anyway  :D

Some parents sued some company for the death of their child.
The company was found to be negligent andfound in favour of the parents.
The parents won the case, but were ordered by the court to pay court fees (~$1 Million dollars).
The parents are now bankrupt and lost a child. But they won the case  (Y)
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 10:17:47 pm
Got an even funnier one, but it hits close to home and was the cause of a very stressful year or so.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 10:20:29 pm
cheeseboy is fundies

There may have been someone doing that but they were probably never a regular here anyway.

Oh ok, I sure had a different impression when I joined, I recall some devs bashing the projects and some people saying it was hopeless, etc and they left .....oh well......though some of "fundies" posts were quite entertaining :D
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 10:24:05 pm
Anyway! I am starting to code this afternoon.

This is gonna be fun! I see big leaps in ENIGMA coming  (Y)

@onpon  - I freely admitted here (and other threads) that I don't know about the ins and outs of GPL. That is the purpose of this thread. That is why I gave explicit examples. My interpretation may have been wrong in some cases. But that was the purpose of this topic :)


Having said all this, maybe a 'fork' isn't necessarily the best option anyway. Once people see what I'll be trying to do, maybe it will help shape the whole project in a way that I'd like to see it end up anyway. :)
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Goombert on September 28, 2014, 10:31:49 pm
Darkstar2 that's because you are confusing me with someone else, it was probably me being really negative. I don't specifically recall any particular instance of somebody being upset and leaving.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 10:52:26 pm

Law is pretty screwy though. I remember a case in over here in Australia years ago. This is what happend;

A burgular broke in to someones home by smashing a window. When he climbed through the window he became severly injured. He later sued the owner of the house for sustaining an injury from the broken glass. The burgular was awarded hundreds of thousands of dollars.

There was another one recently which was even more stupid. But, I'll save that story for another day :)

lol ! Things like this happen in the UK and North America.   but your example is very poor as it is NOT the same thing. In this case the burglar got injured, you were sued for his injury not for him robbing your home :P  Regarding ENIGMA, or your plugins on GMS, don't worry about that......whatever a person does illegally with your plugin THEY are liable, not you, and no, the buyer won't sue you claiming your plugin was too addictive to resist ......... lol.  (Sorry couldn't resist!)

Anyhow you get the drift.  Look, there are millions of users on the planet violating licences and infringing on a daily basis......How many of those get actually sued ?  OF those caught, how many get sued?
Most people get notices.  Again, you as a seller on market place are bound by the terms set forth by YoYoGames......your terms are between you and YYG, and your own terms are between you and the buyer....Whatever the buyer violates is HIS violation NOT yours.  Can you imagine the implication if what you claim were true ? it would mean some very serious implication then, then it would be better to shut down ANY file hosting, content provider, file hosts, social media, Market Place, heck shut down the internet :D

Don't have nightmares about this tonite - as a content provider and seller, you SHOULD eventually expect piracy, violations, abuse, etc, and you said to me yourself you know this, so this is part of being a seller and dealing with public.......or being a site owner.
Cheers :D :D :D Once you made 10 million $ and get sued by ENIGMA or whomever, then worry then...... I too was worried about this back in the days but I realised, what are the odds that I will make enough money :D

Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 28, 2014, 10:56:26 pm
Yeah, I just don't want the be the cause of the licencing violations :P
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Darkstar2 on September 28, 2014, 11:06:50 pm
Darkstar2 that's because you are confusing me with someone else, it was probably me being really negative. I don't specifically recall any particular instance of somebody being upset and leaving.

This is off-topic, so I will PM you something Robert as I don't want to post the link here and derail. 
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: Goombert on September 28, 2014, 11:54:16 pm
I see it Darkstar2, don't worry about cheeseboy, he can be pretty childish, he stills actually hangs around on IRC bugging me to work on enigger.
Title: Re: Creating an ENIGMA fork?
Post by: lonewolff on September 29, 2014, 12:37:13 am
Damn man, there is actually a fork call 'enigger'? LMAO!